A recommended engine rebuilder.

[Forumadmin]

Peter asked me if I could recommend someone to rebuild an engine and to know the cost so that he could decide what to do........

a rebuild of a engine by a specialist, professional ….a rebuild to perfect standard – like new – all perfect done – everything working – Time involved and the amount of money to spend

I said there really is nobody now doing Jowett engine rebuilding that I could recommend. The problem is that there is nothing new off the shelf and every part has to be inspected and you will find that 99% would need some sort of refurbishment. You could follow the work of the Scottish section that has just rebuilt an engine and should show all the things that need doing. Or you could show the notes by Mike Allfrey to a classic car engine rebuilder to get a quotation. My guess is that to do it properly it might take 1000 hrs and that is just for inspection and rebuild and it may not include all the specialist work, specialist tooling and components that you may have to buy or make. By the way it is just as important to do the clutch and gearbox as well.


In the end you still may not get a reliable engine as many of the components will have an unknown history over 60 years.


But that is not to say that someone out there has not been successful and found somebody to do it.

The solution to this will have to be driven by the club. Jowett Car Spares perhaps could be helped by club members to offer more services. For example:
1. To provide a ready to fit pair of crankcases.
2. To check and refurbish heads with all valve gear including pushrods, tappets and camshaft.
3. To provide reground and balanced crank, flywheel, clutch, pistons and liners.
4. To rebuild gearbox.

If all that was in place then the step to putting together as an engine is not that great. But there is still risk and it is difficult to see anyone apart from the purchaser taking that risk.
Some of these services have been available and some still may be, but perfection is not that easy to acheive!

How about asking McLaren?

[Chris Spencer]

I realise that as yet do not any experience of rebuilding this type of engine, yes it's slightly more unusual than your standard single crankcase vertical stroked engine - but at the end of the day it is still very much like most in component form - just like all other engines it has a crankshaft, pistons, con rods, crankcase (s), heads etc and therefore given a little applied time the engine can be rebuilt to high standards.

Although a very different engine my 2 cylinder 8 hp was rebuilt professionally, the bits were about £400 and the rebuilder charged £750 labour but that was including all the machine work to the heads / crank / bores / balancing etc.

My guess is that an experienced engine builder who likes a challange and has a proper workshop set up will turn a 4 cylinder jowett engine around in about 50 hours - he would probably need a further 10 - 20 hours research / reading time if it is the first one - so today's rates and 60 to 70 hours will be about £2,500 labour and machining plus parts - I guess it would not be difficult to spend in excess of £4,500 on a professional rebuild.

[p.p.]

my engine rebuilder" www.kfz-ryschka.de "is in the racing scene and also in the oldtimer scene.... he did ruth's morris minor, my friends morgan and xk 120 jag engine, and all performs just perfect!! top speed 150 km/h (morris minor) morgan in racing trim - outstanding performance....all the cars: no problems in the swiss mounains!!!
he estimates with including heads/crank/bores/balancing, for a professional rebuild:£ 6500.-
it is a lot of money to spend.....but maybe worth for a jowett javelin...???!!!! £ 6500.- : 70 h= £ 93.- per hour for a specialist.... maybe i'm

peter

chris you got a PM

[Tim Neville]

£4500, £6500, Blimey, this is getting a bit silly isn't it? Especially for a car that you're lucky to get £6k for, for the whole thing if it's all perfect!
I can get a Subaru WRX complete for about £3.5k from the States - I wonder if I could get one under a Jav bonnet for less than £2k.!
To be serious though, if I remember rightly new crankcases can be had from JCS for about £1200, there's nothing else particularly complicated that can't be had or made, after all it's a simple little engine. There are plenty of small but excellent engineers about (I can think of two here in the middle of nowhere!) perfectly capable of doing all the usual stuff - line boring etc.. I admit that the heads could be a problem, but surely one can get a reasonably functioning engine and gearbox for less than the figures alluded to previously? I would guess that most members do.
Just to put things in some perspective, I've nearly completed a rebuild on my 1953 Ferguson TEF20 diesel engine and it will have cost me under £600!!

[Amy]

Is it really likely to take 1,000 hours to rebuild an engine?

That would be a full time professional doing nothing else for 6 months, working 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

I simply don't believe that is realistic, even for their first ever Jowett engine.

If it does take that long to rebuild an engine we'd better get started, because I've currently only got on average around 10 hours a week to commit to the project, so it could take me 2 years just to rebuild an engine.

If the going rate is £6,500, I know several very experienced engineers that would quite happily do it for a sensible chunk less than that, even on their first time they'd make a reasonable wage doing it. Trouble is, until someone tries it, we don't know if they can get it right (but it is not rocket science to rebuild any engine, just requires time and good instructions)

Jack.

Edit - still logged in as Amy

[Chris Spencer]

I based my estimate on sound knowledge and personal experience of being professionally employed within the vehicle restoration movement for several years (ablit many years ago but I have never strayed too far from the trade not to understand what it takes or the costs involved). So go and try to find yourself a competent historic / vintage / classic engine builder who can give you a guarantee with your rebuilt engine - OK found him have you ? - he has many years experience and will arrange to line bore, balance, crack & stress test all components as required, grind and polish crankshaft journals, make modifications as required, be able to identify what components will last the life of the rebuild and what will not. Have the patience to to track down any hard to find components and read up on the subject matter accordingly if it should be required. Right then what is his hourly rate because he is a penny under £40 he is not worth using!

Parts - pistons, rings, shells, gaskets, valves, springs, timing chain, belts, hoses, clutch plate & sundries all cost money and do not fall off the shelf for free, a cheap rebuilt engine that lasts two or three seasons / 5 thousand miles is not a cheap engine when compared to one that is properly rebuilt with time, care and some expense - that goes on to cover several seasons and 15 thousand miles plus! - I rest my case.

N.B. Mr Clements still thinks I am under estimating the cost and if anyone should know it's Keith - he is into double figures with Javelin / Jupiter engine rebuilds !

[Robin Fairservice]

Try talking to Mike Smailes because he used to rebuild Jowett engines. Scott Renner in California also does this work.

[p.p.]

i talk to heinz ludder (stauffer ag, oldtimer garage in switzerland and member) he rebuild a jowett engine.
he estimates ca. £1500.- pro cylinder plus spare parts..... ca. 70 - 80 hours

peter

[Forumadmin]

I am interested to here from the Scottish section about how long they think it should take.

Note I am not saying that a competent classic car engine rebuilder cannot rebuild an engine in 80 hrs, but we are looking here, I understand, at taking the best bits from 3 engines that have an unkown history to make a perfect engine. Perhaps we assume that certain new components will be fitted. Can we suggest a list of these?

Crankcase- but then it is not ready to fit and probably needs the work undertaken by the Scottish section who I hope can publish what is necessary. Are there any new ones left?
Crank - well you could probably get a new one for £10000. Second hand one will need a lot of testing. Sure you can just get it reground and balanced perhaps hardened and crack tested.
Crank pulley- get one metal sprayed on the seal surface.
Oil pump and oil drive gear should have remanufactured components
Timing case cover - may be able to use an old one but perhaps modify with water pump ally flange.
Water pump needs to be reconditioned completely.
Water transfers and water inlet pipes may need renewing
Con rods- As above making new would cost a few grand, although Chris may well know somebody who could do it for less. Con rods are notorious for being bent, cracked and un-balanced.
Pistons- assume you go for Fiesta which need some mods
Liners- perhaps you can find four that can be bored and honed - But how much for new ones?
Heads- well wait awhile and the club may have new. But this is probably the most risky component. Obviously have valve seats done and new valves and springs.
Camshaft and timing wheels- Maybe we can get one made from a billet for £1000? Or you can recondition one with Stellite, metal spraying on journals and a regrind.
Timing chain- still available new I hope
Followers, push rods and rocker arms- maybe find some new followers, make some dural push rods, but rocker arms? Perhaps these are next on the list to make.
Fit new rocker arm shaft which I think is available.
Flywheel probably needs skimming and lightening and are any new ring gears still available?
Reconditioned clutch and new clutch plate, thrust bearing and reconded actuating fingers.
A lot of fettling with the oil filter housing and a modified spin-on oil filter
Reconditioned distributor, dynamo, starter motor
Petrol pump with new gasket
New radiator
New manifolds
Reconditioned carburetors

and we are ready for assembly! Now I could assemble in 30 hours doing some, but not all, the required tests along the way and then take a few more on the test bed.
I have replaced a cracked crankcase overnight (7 hours) and then driven 200 miles to a race meeting.

Have I forgotten anything?
Well yes, all the gaskets, nuts, bolts, studs and washers that you may also fit new or you might just check and fettle or make up.
I guess if I had spent on getting all new parts 30 years ago I would not have had to rebuild engines so often. Interestingly it was often the new parts which failed, such as valves and pistons. Now in some cases that may have been down to poor machining or fitting or checking. Or it may simply have been stressing the component to beyond their limit.

But that is what I love about Jowetts. Their individuality!

[Tony Fearn]

Is it possible that this topic has put off anyone considering joining the JCC (unless they earn more than the P.M.) if they don't yet have a running Jowett?

Tony.

[Forumadmin]

If you own a Jowett and need an engine rebuilt this topic should help. It shows how well the club assists. It also shows the cost of rebuilding by professionals. Some of us have lived through the era of virtually free Jowetteering; but the skills are becoming scarcer, the servicable second hand parts are like hen's teeth and off-the-shelf parts only available through the Jowett clubs that are doing an excellent job. There are new owners without the skills and without a cellar full of Jowett bits. They may also be remote from the small groups of Jowett enthusiasts that some of us enjoy.

The topic shows how necessary it is do what Mike Allfrey and the Scottish Section have done to thoroughly explore what is necessary to rebuild an engine to a 'perfect' condition. If you cannot afford a professional rebuilder to do it all then you need this in-depth help to supplement the 'Jowett Workshop Manual'

By all means comment and suggest alternatives to help Peter and others with their engines. Currently there are two engines in Finland that need assistance to get them going. There are probably many others more than 100 miles from Yorkshire that need remote assistance.

We used to have a First Aid scheme that allowed you to say you were willing to help get a Jowett on the road. Now we can communicate via JowettTalk to ask for such help and get volunteers where they are needed.

[p.p.]

jut to put all the matter strait.

i got not engine or mechanic skills and the bigest handycap is; i'm living in the jowett "bunu" in the fare outpost, no volunteers here and only 2 javelins around: h.luders, 150 mi away and mine.....(h.luder got himself a oldtimer garage,so it cost money to go to the garage)

i will keep "rhowina" as she is, old engine and,and.....standard original

the newly build engine will be for the monte carlo rally and maybe the 24 le mans (long and heavy runs under lots of strain to the little engine.... just as the original engine there have in the old days, custum made in the factory.......with lot's of man power, exactly like to day....lot's of hours. all the work will be on CD !!!! also for the jowetters !!
it is a big effort of money ( actually i cane not afford it but i will have to do it, hobby is hobby) and we ar not all mad....??

to get "rhowina" to the road i need the help of jowetters in the club, and there ar just out of the world cool and very, very helpfull.
for normal use i put together my old engine to good running order's only with the big help of the club family "jowett workshop manual , the internet of the club and personal help of jowetters
again a big THANK'S TO YOU ALL

peter

[Drummond Black]

After the Daventry Rally and our holiday following the event, I have just started to gather pace and catch up on Jowett Talk subjects. I notice that various comments regarding the Scottish Section engine project have recently been made and it is only right that we should add our pennyworth.

I have done a resume on our time scale to complete our rebuild project and the data is as follows :-
We took just over 40 hours to complete the project from a blank pair of castings to a running unit. Now you must bear in mind that this time scale was all under " TRAINING CONDITIONS ". This was always to be a learning exercise. Also please remember that all the preparation of the parts was additional to the assembly time. NOW I remember being told by George Mitchell that Jowett Engineering took 30 hours to assemble an engine with all the items cleaned and ready. I was never able to substansiate that figure. We have no record of preparation time. however, I know it was substantial. ( Cleaning, checking, balancing, machining, painting and the rest !!!!!!! )

As I have stated many times during my reports on the project we all learned a lot in completing this unit. We know that we have many hours of video which Martin & myself will get round to editing over the winter months. Another unit will soon be ready for our next rebuilld. Comments welcome

Drummond

[PJGD]

I'm with Keith on this one. Having recently completed a thorough and painstaking engine rebuild which is detailed in the slide presentation in my Gallery here: TOPIC

[Tony Fearn]

I have no axe to grind, just being the 'devil's advocate' to stimulate further discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

Tony.