SHOULD WE SAVE A FEW/SOME/OR ALL OF EXISTING JOWETT SPARES?

[Forumadmin]

For those wanting to start a list there is a spreadsheet here of Jav and Jup parts.
Or a text version here.

I still do not think the problem is storage as such but the fact that we do not have a catalogue of what is there. If it is moved then it will be of no use as it is not accessible. One strategy would be to concentrate first on the large items such as body panels and do the process I suggested. Then the heavy stuff such as axles and suspension, then the stuff there are lots of. Perhaps divide into car types if people can recognise the parts! There will be nuances in some parts that make an expert eye essential before scrapping.

Let us look for a big barn, at least so we can do the sorting.

And Chris you do realise I am advocating throwing something away........

[Chris Spencer]

Keith - It would not be your 'Compulsive hoarder disorder' that you are going to throw away by chance - would it ?

[The Bradford man]

Has anyone in the UK JCC thought to contact the other Jowett Clubs in the world scene to see what they are doing in this spares storage regard?

Aussie may have a system and New Zealand most certainly has spares stores (they have been working well for "donkey''s ages"!). In New Zealand the actual JCC of NZ has a large shed (to give a idea of size, It's floor area could possibly accommodate 4 or 5 cars), in Auckland. This is the home of the clubs' Jowett Parts (NZ). Land rental is being paid I think.

The Northern Branch of the club also has a couple of shipping containers in a semi-rural area for small and large second hand parts. The containers are nearby to a workshop where they have a weekly (I think) evening meetings for working on cars, coffee and scones and a bit of a gossip . This workshop "social centre" is owned by a club member and they may pay him some sort of a "peppercorn" rental.

Central Branch has nothing in the way of communal storage . . . just whatever individuals keep in their personal stock.

I understand that the Southern Branch have a couple of shipping containers with a roof joining them. (also in a semi-rural area and near to other Car Club premises). That's where their Branch spares are kept. There is a clubroom set up there too I believe. Land rental may also be paid. I haven't been there so I may be incorrect about their set-up.

I think it'd be best to direct questions to the Spares Executive of Jowett Parts (NZ) and the Branches themselves than go by what I perceive as being the situation.

Best regards.
Leo.

Heres some pics of Southern Branch lay out as Leo Talked about above.

Container on the right has Bradford parts in it, Left has Javelin Parts.









Heres the club rooms



There should be a good reserve kept of all new and 2nd hand stock available to all members.
Especially parts that break.

[george garside]

Alans comment about having new pots cast ties up with the matter of 'private hoards' .. There may well be more than enough good condition pots suitable for reboring, valve seat recutting etc in various collections or even being used as door stops or even shelf supports!. Same goes for prewar induction pipes, jav crancases/shafts etc etc. There may even be some good vintage pots at the back of sheds etc.

The general drift of opinion is rightly towards trying getting such stuff listedin some way or other, the success of which may mean a shift of ethos from hoarding to sharing
george

[Jack]

RE: Private hoardes.

I think it is important to remember that members have a right to privacy. Some (if not many) may be reluctant to tell others what they really have.

For example, if I had a critically important part in my spares, only have one of them, and wanted to keep it in case I had a failure on my own car, I would be pretty peeved if I was emotionally blackmailed into giving it up by a member or group of members who desperately needed that part in order to get a car back on the road.

It may be selfish, but the simple reality is that this is the kind of thing that people can fall out over, and my nature is to avoid conflict where possible - quite often that means not saying anything or advertising something that might lead to conflict with friends and club members.

I may also feel very differently if I had a bunch of spares that a close friend wanted vs a club member who has just joined the club and wants an entire list of parts to rebuild a car that I may never see again.

The primary concern, for me, is to deal with the storage of large quantities of spares that we do not have storage for, and once that is sorted perhaps we can explore the idea of sharing private hoardes. That is likely to be a much more emotive subject, and is less of a priority.

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

Which is why everybody should to go through the process I described and decide what they are probably never going to need. At least they make a list and can answer instantly a plea for a part from a longstanding member or a new one depending on their inclination. They can also share the list of parts they probably will not need so that more informed decisions can be made by the spares team or by individuals who may embark on an unnecessary fabrication. Team SC will be going through the process over the next couple of years figuring out what is needed to support 6 Jowetts over the next 50 years.

The hoarders are really saviours, they might think the value of what they have might go up, but for the right reasons, they saved it from the scrap heap 30 years ago. So the value can only go up!

If space is really the issue and we cannot find a suitable (single) place to house the excess close to the JCS stores, then how about considering distributing the stock. Obviously track where it has gone. Each pocket of stock can be worked on by individuals or teams to bring the parts to a serviceable state. This is similar to the NZ system and one that existed a few years ago when we had section spares officers. The "Rebuild line" was also operated successfully by Harry Brierley who brought back into circulation many gearboxes.

Any comment Geoff or Michael? Have you managed to read this thread yet?

[paul wilks]

Speaking for myself (because obviously I can't speak for others!) I am happy to fill in a simple "I have the following spares...." type of thing. If it's something I have only one of and I think I might need it then I will obviously have to say "sorry you can't have it but you can see if you could use it as a pattern". I know I have Javelin bits and pieces I will NEVER use (I hope!) like a brand new steering link and a pair of late front suspension stub axles (I don't think I will ever change my earlier suspension in favour of the later version now!)

Some time ago I passed on to the club some Bradford bits and pieces I picked up from the former Jowett agent at Birkenhead when they closed down in the late 1970s.

I believe this must be a possible way forward. Tim said something like this before but it would be a great pity if the Jowett Car Club were to become a club for either only very rich members i.e. those who can afford ridiculous prices to get parts produced or even a club for those very clever people who can make their own parts in their fantastically equipped workshops.

So I better put my money where my mouth is and get on and produce an inventory of what I have!

[p.p.]

thanks paul !!!!! hope everybody will follow you !!!! thanks !!

peter

[Keith Andrews]

Leo Bolter wrote:
Has anyone in the UK JCC thought to contact the other Jowett Clubs in the world scene to see what they are doing in this spares storage regard?

I also strongly suggest this as has Brtadford man above.
NZ spares basically broken up between Christchurch and Auckland, the 2 main 'centers' of Jowett interest at each end of the country with warehousing of new and used parts. Jowett Spares NZ ships worldwide.
Admittadly its not perfect..after all its not a paid , professional effort..a volunteer club effort thats very well organised considering.
And yes, committees do run out of space, do have to 'cull' certain parts because of space...And the people who decide are basically those who know what is avalible, what turns over, what is replacable, and have had many years of experiance in spares.
I have seen a couple club spare parts more organised, but then they have memberships well into the 100s unlike new branches will no where that sort of club income, and own their club rooms and warehousing outright...NZ we dont.
And considering that Jowett NZ is right up there above most Car clubs and hot rod clubs with far money money.

Yes as suggested above, I also agree, maybe the UK clubs should consult NZ... I believe some of the UK members have seen the NZ set up and some will be here for the easter NZ club 50th anversary..maybe a good time to look into it?

[Chris Spencer]

Let me just put another side to this issue, there tends to be little issue with availability of mechanical parts for the mass volume period car that emerged from Ford / BMC / Rover / Hillman etc. Hence it is rare that a vehicle is unrestorable due to lack of a mechanical parts availability however, outer body panels are now becoming rare (even secondhand) for some vehicles - for example take the Austin A105 Countryman that the magazine 'Practical Classics' is currently restoring (page 106 March edition) - they have just parted with £1750 for a few body panels and some bits of chrome in an endvour to see this rare example restored.

So if you are restoring a vehicle that requires 4 wings and few other panels along with the rest of the restoration you can soon get to several £k in parts alone - and when the vehicle in question is only worth half the amount in value (or less) than that of which you expended in restoration without even taking into account your time & effort - is the point when most well intended restorers throw in the towel. Now I am not advocating that we all purchase / maintain / restore our cars purely for financial incentive only but at the point that a owner decides that a restoration project is financially unviable or too far gone, we would all like to think that there is still a reasonable outcome and the abandoned project becomes a source of spares in order to keep others on the road.

That is until another purchaser comes over the horizon with ready cash, he is not too bothered about cost of replacement panels and that the vehicle has some odd bits missing either - and he can arrange transport at the drop of a hat to tow the vehicle away - he is not the scrapman either. The person in question is the 'Banger Racer' - yes coming to short oval / dirt track near you soon is 'Classic Banger Racing' . Last year over 100 A60 / Westminster / Farina based BMC models were raced to destruction at the 'Westie Meeting' - any model of this type on the market at the time for less than £1500 had a very uncertain future !

In July of this year in excess of 100 Rover P4 / P5 / P6 & SD1 are already entered in the Auntie Rover Armageddon banger meeting at Ipswich, and the following day over 100 Ford Cortinas are to be raced to destruction at Swaffham - No loss I hear hear you say for the 80's repmobile - but this meeting has classic Mk1 / Mk2 & Mk3 models lining up along side the later cars - The irony being that the event is being held to celebrate the Cortina's 50th anniversary !!! (see pages 18 & 24 of March edition of 'Practical Classics')

So what's next ? - 50's saloon banger racing ? - I am not here to scare monger - this is reality !!! - Should you think that the 1500cc engine of your £500 Jav parts donor car is going to put off our helmet & rigger booted friend - fear not - they will just drop the engine & box and stick something in it with twice the power !

All the more reason then that the present debate on Jowett parts & storage should be taken very seriously !

[george garside]

Interestinly this thread ( is that the correct term?) is bringing up some interesting points not directly related to storage of parts but to other 'parts related' matters.

Chris makes the very real point about the cost oof a retoration exeeding the value of the restored vehicle and , particularly if work is farmed out to professionals and body parts made from scratch' this is a very real situation. It applies not just to Jowetts but to other old vehicles with a comparitively low, value even when fully restored . One reasson for this is that the cost of making say a front wing is not hugely differrent for eg a pre war wolseley 18//80 or a 4.5 litre Derby Bentley but the latter is much moe able to 'abasob the cost' so to speak. Same goes for castings, gear cutting etc etc.

There are of course a number of ways round this some of which may not meet the approval of the 'purists' or concours addicts.

As far as arguably the most needed body panels i.e. front & rear wings is it not time to accept and have moulds made for fibreglass wings that could then be produced as required at much less cost than tin ones. only the moulds wouuld need storing!. There were at one time some very good fibreglass Jav rear wings around and of course Jowetts were would be pioneers of the stuff with the R4 but I suppose thats not really a good excuse! My own view is that it would be acceptable and indeed sensible to use fibreglass replicas if it meant someone being able to afford to complete the resoration ( or should it be resurection) of a car that would otherwise follow the fate Chris has outlined.

Another way of putting ,particularly side valve Jowetts back on the road would be wider acceptance of period modifications a agood example being the 1929 long 2 with '34 engine etc mentioned in another thread. Mods of that order were quite common in the 40's & 50's as were the creation of AJ (all Jowett) 'specials' eg its OK if it is mostly Jowett/ eg athe Bradford special in South africa which was created I think inthe 60's using a blown Bradford engine but, I think< an Austin 7 chassis - certainly an Austin 7 front axle!. ONe Jowett agent created a Braddford trials car using a jowett WD engine, Bradford Chassis and body with a jupiter bonnet ( I have a very poor photcopy ofa Motor Sport article & photo of this - has anybody got a copy that will reproduce in the Jowetteer. This type of ,larking about, can maake unafordable or economically daft rresurections feasible and the various Austin 7 clubs have been at it for years which must have saved lots of Austin 7's!

This posting is not 'thread drift' It merely indicates the need to throw now't away as some ingenious buggers may in the future use some 'useless' spares to cobble together interesting AJ Specials as do our Austin 7 brethren! The fibreglass wings etc or at least having molds for them would also facilitate such reurections .

george

george

[Keith Andrews]

Fact of life, distruction derbies and such right or wrong are going to take place steel destoried.
And if it is not the destruction derbys they are only going to be crushed and recycled anyway....UNLESS the members of these enthusist car clubs have the money the time the space to store for decades for future generations....
Bottom line They dont, its all complain, talk and no do. So do we blame the car crushers, do we blame the destruction derbies or the car clubs? No it is just the way it has been the way it is and the way it will be...

The issues mentioned in the 2 above posts are very real....
And have been of concern with vintage guys for many decades in NZ..particularly with American vintage steel...Ford Chev Dodge..even the ford pop.
Thru the late 50s into the 80s good steel was choped channeled for hot rods.The a company started up doing fiberglass wings, then full bodies, including the AC Cobra. The vintage guys wouldnt touch them. As the steel panels became more unavalible, it became a matter of if u wanted that vintage car on the road then had to use 'glass panels....purest or not glass often became a reality...Before the 80s there was a lot of resentment from the vintage guys to rodders...even rodders with glass bodied vechiles....then steel became rare and glass readly availble, rodders started to think twice about cutting steel and moved to glass...and noticably the 2 camps drew closer, even sharing swap meets and show, events, and big increase of rods and classic car actualy on the road.

So we may bitch about avaiblity of panels, but what are we doing about it?
How many Bradford vans have been cut back to lorries? Why?
Avalibity of wood frames or avaliblity of frame patterns? Why are there no wood frame templates and patterns avaible, why has no restoers made a set over the yrs?
Avablity of the roof and rear panels doors etc? Why are there no 'glass moulds for these, or even a full mould of a roof....or even a full Van rear?
Over 80% of glass moulds is labour, and it is not rocket science to make them...we do have the plugs to make them.

Bottom line ..is it better to only have the purest steel vechiles on the road or is it better to have all those who would like to own/drive these cars have one, even if a replica?
Or is it better to have a 1/2 built car, steel unavable or too expensive, stored in a shed and rust away?

We cast new cranks all sorts of stuff but when it comes to panels or framing thats a no go.
I dont get the logic?

[AlanBartlett]

"Bottom line ..is it better to only have the purest steel vechiles on the road or is it better to have all those who would like to own/drive these cars have one, even if a replica?
Or is it better to have a 1/2 built car, steel unavable or too expensive, stored in a shed and rust away?"

Keith I think you are spot on about the future generations, about how things change with people adapting existing vehicles for modifying purposes, It does come down to whats there, what can be used, what if there are any hopefully future generations? Some people are being put off by not having the skills to up keep such vehicle but even more being priced out by how much these sort of vehicles. Are we going to have the chance to use the spares if we don't have enough new recruits as it were? seems a kind of circle is forming

[Chris Spencer]

This posting is not 'thread drift' It merely indicates the need to throw now't away as some ingenious buggers may in the future use some 'useless' spares to cobble together interesting AJ Specials as do our Austin 7 brethren! The fibreglass wings etc or at least having molds for them would also facilitate such reurections .

George - My sentiments exactly - with the advent of modern welding techniques and welding equipment available to the home restorer at economical prices many panels can be brought back to life - it is not the first time that I have taken a front wing with impact damage to the front but a good rear leading edge and a separate front wing of the same model with a good front but rust perforated rear leading edge and cut the pair in two / then welded the two together and made a solid panel - it has never been easier with the low heat welding technology available in today's market - I have even carefully removed a welded on wing on a damaged shell and refitted to another car where replacements were not available.

[Leo Bolter]

Keith said:

Availability of wood frames or avaliblity of frame patterns? Why are there no wood frame templates and patterns avaible, why has no restoers made a set over the yrs?

I have developed a set of templates and a double-sided jig for making left and right hand door columns for CC Bradfords. Using them, I have made a couple of columns off the jigs/patterns for myself. The columns are designed to be made from 3 separate pieces of timber and to be pinned, screwed and glued* together when final fit up has been checked and “fettled” to suit the individual vehicle.

The club, here in NZ, has been made aware of the existence of these jigs, but that was many ages ago and that information may have become lost in the mists of time.

The JCC of NZ had at one time a few original Jowett Company van timber parts that were only available to be hired as patterns to allow copying. I suppose they are still available if asked for . . .

Those body door hinge column items are (perhaps along with the corresponding door front (hinge) timber – I have no patterns for those) in my opinion, the only really “tricky” bits to make. The rearmost vertical columns on a van have compound curves also, but are not too bad to reproduce especially if one has reasonable originals to copy. There rest of the woodwork could probably do with drawings with accurate recording of dimensions. The drawings having been made by someone (in CAD?), but really don’t warrant jigs being constructed, in my humble opinion.

Perhaps the days of making those hinge columns from timber are numbered too. It’s not inconceivable that moulds could be made to produce them in glass-reinforced resin! . . no rot to contend with then!

The whole double sided jig and a pile of section templates.

A closer view showing the template checking positions on the "main plate".

There's a third image which shows the double sided nature of this jig. It should go in here! . . . but try as I may, it just won't!
I've struck this before. Has anyone got a clue as to what I'm not doing right?

I'll put that image on a separate post for the moment until I get this hiccup sorted.

* Resorsinol glue – waterproof, two-component glue as used in making marine plywood, laminated timber joists etc. Under test is stronger that the timber itself, if done properly . . .
Cheers.
Leo