Concours judging discussion at exec.

[Keith Clements]

The JCC Chairman recently distributed to a few of the executive council a suggestion from Michael K-O on some changes to the concours judging criteria and weighting of these criteria. Some discussion ensued via email from those copied. I have copied most of this here. The subject has been discussed a few times on JowettTalk but more comment would be welcomed. For example here.

MKO proposed ammendments to Concours.PDF

(325.69 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

Jowett Car Club Concours

Proposed amendment to Concours marking system.

Pro

As a considered effort to simplify the concours judging list coming from the most authorative source

JCC has, its brevity is admirable.

Con

The level of marking per item is still a matter of the subjective view of the individual judge who does

not always have the necessary backup in unfamiliar areas.

In the past the prettiest & most unusual cars always wanted to be in the concours (primarily

D’Elegance) and the rest of us just brought our bangers to support the club and meet our friends.

There is a split in the aims of the concours, does prettiness or originality rule? The present system

seems to favour originality, but in the absence of a valid MOT and “drive to the rally” rule it favours

cheque book restorations & trailed cars over those taxed and proved by use for the journey to the

rally field.

As I have been involved with this side of JCC’s affairs may I put forward my own comments ?:-

Firstly we do not have enough judges or enough time to judge every attendee’s vehicle at an annual

rally. If we do not ask people in advance to enter their vehicle for concours those wishing to be

judged should be given a suitable windscreen card on registration at the hotel. Now having settled

which cars are to be judged against an accepted yardstick, who is available to judge them?

I feel that the membership list should be scrutinised by the executive committee and people

selected for knowledge & experience listed, and from which listing a suitable group should be

appointed that year’s judges. An “apprenticeship “system should be incorporated each year to

increase the size of the base group. While judges should never judge their own entries there

invaluable knowledge & experience must of necessity be used.

Sandra Purves

Awards coordinator

Dear all,

I recently attended the JOAC AGM and Concours judging which did things differently. Tom Chapman can explain. Tom also organised the judging at the Basingstoke rally so I was surprised he was not copied on the email from Geoff.

We do have a dilemma raised by Sandra concerning prettiness and originality and I also think there is one concerning mechanical soundness and use.

Sure we have a history and tradition but that should not mean we do not review the way things have been done to accommodate new goals that we set ourselves.

One goal we should set is to present cars that do show the design and technical nature of the cars as they came off the production line. Now these may well be museum pieces that cannot be driven on the road in future. But in my view they are crucial to understanding how things were.

An almost conflicting goal is to present cars to as many audiences as possible either through concours car shows against other marques where over restoration is prevalent.

Yet another conflicting goal is to encourage owners to use cars and take them to many events and use them every day which obviously means they are unlikely to win a prettiness concours against trailered 'cheque book' (if they are still used by those with money) restoration.

So considering the three goals of originality, prettiness and use we could either have separate competitions or amalgamate into one competition. Either way we need to say what criteria we use to judge and how we weight each criteria.

Originality could be simply judged by deducting one mark for each non-original part; but then somebody may argue that a non-original carburettor is of more value than a 10 cross head screws or ones that have been chromed or polished! Such criteria either need to be laid down or left at judges discretion. Personally I prefer the latter as rules will always be argued ad infinitum and only guidelines need to be issued. JOAC returned the judging forms back to the owners and explained why something was marked down. The important thing is that there is consistency from year to year, albeit allowing some change to accommodate anomalies or agreed and published criteria. Personally I consider the precision of the technical development of the mechanical components to be more important than the precision of date and model of the trim. But that is more difficult to judge. We could ask owners to list all the components they think are not original on their car and build this list up year by year for that car. A discussion between all the owners in the competition on the originality of each of their cars would obviate the need for judges and would encourage participation. Experts could be on hand (indeed they may be in the competition themselves) and in some way adjudicate on any issue.

Prettiness is not just aesthetic but should include panel fit and straightness, paint finish, chrome quality, and interior finish. But how far do you allow the restorer to go to create a deep gloss using modern paint or spruce up the engine bay or underside of the car? Is it important that there is some grease on the underside or oil in the engine compartment or that the seats and carpets show some wear? The danger here is that all of the criteria for prettiness favour the professional restoration and trailered car. How do you quantify prettiness? Interesting how the Jowett Juniors judged the cars or how a non-Jowett person judges them!

How do we encourage the amateur restoration and use of the car? Well we could ask owners to submit with their concours entry how the restoration was done and by whom. This would also develop knowledge of those who have skills that can be used by others hopefully improving our ability to get and keep cars on the road with improving standards and quality. Some criteria could be devised that encouraged the restoration by the current owner, for example triple points if he/she painted the car themselves.

Similarly use could be encouraged by people listing the mileage and events they have attended in the car. If this is kept from year to year for each car this could feed into a judging criteria that favours the used car over the trailered one. A simple scheme would be 1 point for each 100 miles travelled and 5 points for each event entered, perhaps 10 for a motorsport event.

I recently looked at the concours judging sheets issued over many years at JCC rallies in the 1980s an 90s. These formed part of the car's documentation. Such a build up of information on a car is useful and valuable to the current owner, future owners and the club. It is something the club should do.

As I said previously, we can either judge these areas of originality, prettiness and use separately or combine them.

Please let us not let go this opportunity and just do it as we have always done.......

--
Regards
Keith Clements

I felt uncomfortable about councours judging but then, I always do! My only direct experience was when the first and only time I put my FHC Jupiter into a concours. It was a Scottish JCC meeting and George Mitchell was judging.
My Jupiter had wheels cut down to 15" as when I put it on the road, tyres had just come into the MoT and there was a tyre famine, I was told 16" tyres are not available and may never be. remeber people drove on tyres until the canvas was showing!!

At the judging Goerge woulkd deduct one point for non-original fittings, I lost 4 points one for each wheel! I thought that pretty daft, was I going to drive the car with one 15" wheel and 3 x 16"??

As to carbs, I run 32ICHs on one Jupiter and 32IMPEs on the other. The cars run so much better in all respects than they ever could have done when they left te Factory brand new. Why deduct points for that?

Then we have the problem of added overdrive - I discovered that in 1953 Jowett were experimenting with overdrive for the Javelin. This was a separate unit within the propshaft, not a unit fixed to the rear of the gearbox like I have on my FHC Jupiter. Never a production item of vourse, but nearly so! As those of us who have overdrive know, it very positively transforms the car!

My pet hates are two
(1) wheels not the colour of the car
(2) Jaguar-type walnut on the SA instrument panel instead of the original type.

I would accept an alternator on a Jupiter if the rev counter (presumably electronic) was still working behind the original or original-looking faceplate.

Questions we may need to seriously address in the future are
what if a non-Jowett gearbox is fitted?
What if a non-Jowett engine is fitted?

Edmund Nankivell

Here is an extract from the JowettTalk discussion linked to above.

Chris Spencer » 11 Apr 2013 00:01

Although originality from the factory is an important factor when judging a vehicle it would be foolish to not accept that owners did carry out modifications to the cars in period - and it was not unusual to find cars that were a few years old have oil coolers fitted to them or maybe brake upgrades at later date by the fitting of a remote servo along with tow bars / wheel embellishers etc - two tone paint work was also popular throughout the 50's / 60's / 70's & 80's quite often a owner addition to the vehicle.

So if a owner has sensible modifications that deviate from a factory original car should the modifications be marked down, in my book most certainly not - this is part of the cars history - why mark it down ? If a Jowett van had sign writing down the side of it does it warrant being scored down ? because it did not leave the factory with the sign writing on it ! - but the sign writing is most certainly part of the vehicles history.

Has far as I am concerned providing the vehicle has not been turned into some custom mobile bling trinket wearing box on wheels the personal period modifications to the vehicles should be accepted - owners of the vehicles carried these out and it is an example of the period that the vehicle survived through - you would not see a concours judge scoring a Austin A35 down just because it has a steel sunroof visor fitted to it or a Ford Zephyr fitted with a Raymond Mays cylinder head.

The way forward in assisting the concours judges at our club events is to put together a judges guide for each model as already surgested- this needs to be more photographic than anything - lots of words attempting to describe which lamp the car should have fitted to the boot lid would be quite difficult to follow - a few words and an image of the rear of the car stating the changes through the years would very much do the job - then again it is easy to fall in to the trap - remember at the side of Ford / Vauxhall / Rover - Jowett was a small scale vehicle manufacture - it was not unusual to see overlaps - some vehicles were export KDC (knock down component) in other words they arrived in kits and were assembled upon arrival - interchange of parts did happen / some cars were accident repaired with later styles of panels & trim because the earlier parts were no longer available and it would be foolish to score down such trivial items - and please do not get me started on tool kits !!

Score the vehicle on what it is - allow for scoring on originality but equally so where a car has been restored and the owner has done the majority of the work also score on that fact.

Chris Spencer.

[Jack]

Well, I may as well pitch my 2p in, because I think this is a contentious subject and even the above comments from longstanding members of the club have a wide variety of opinions.

Personally I see concours as being for one purpose. To preserve cars in the factory original state as they left the production line. They are a matter of historical record. If everyone that owned a Jupiter decided to fit an alternative part or significantly modify the same part, eventually we would not be entirely sure what the original was. Or at least we may not be entirely sure how it should look, or be fitted.

The condition of the car should be, as above, as it left the factory. That means the paintwork should be "as new" and marks can be deducted for it not being in good condition, the same for mechanical components or other trim and fittings - they need to be clean so that they can be viewed and understood for the future, however...

Overpolishing and cleaning the inside of exhaust pipes is not (in my opinion) concours. That is just having a very shiny car.

We have various awards that allow the members of the club to recognise non-concours cars that they like, which are polished to the nth degree but are not however original (or indeed are in far better condition than it would have been on leaving the factory). The People's Award, The Best of the Rest Clock, and at the recent rally we added a couple of trophies designed to recognise members and cars that were particularly "nice" for want of a better word.

Perhaps it is time for the club to consider a separate award for "nice" cars to concours cars, in which modifications and over-finished cars are not penalised for it. We have Premier, 1st and 2nd place concours awards, and in many classes the field is only 3 or perhaps 4 cars. Maybe it is time for us to have a Premier and 1st concours award, and then a "Best of the Rest" 2nd place award for the nicest non-original car. People could choose which to enter, reducing the obligation on judges to go over each car in minute detail in search of originality, I would certainly find it much easier to judge which is the more attractive vehicle than which is the most original, and the "Best of the Rest" award could be easily delegated to those members who perhaps might not be comfortable judging a concours competition, but after that experience might be more prepared to get involved - a good use of the apprentice concours judge perhaps?

Jack.

[Jack]

One thing reviewing the suggestion is the absence of any indicator of a car running well. The new system looks not to require the engine started or lights operated, so a car could feasibly just about crawl over the line smoking its way onto the field, and then win the concours. I don't know what the solution to that might be, but it doesn't seem right to me.

I am very much in favour of less categories and simple descriptions, and the increased importance of panel & door fit as well as paintwork is something that makes sense as this should have been bang on when leaving the factory. Also having 20 marks total for a large category like paint allows for judges to exercise a little more differentiation between cars - at Basingstoke reviewing the judging forms it was very easy for a car to be marked 4 or 5 throughout with one or two 3s. If the same car was marked out of 20 for the same category, would a judge apportion 12, 16 or 20 marks? They are much more likely to be able to say "the paint overall is very good, but there is just one stonechip on the wing which means a score of 19"

We had a couple of categories tied and even three way tied in Basingstoke, which then presents the organisers with a problem. Concours awards are not easily shared, so an independent judge then has to go over the tied cars and try and differentiate between them. Considering these were marks out of 100 the chances of one tie seemed low, but two or three?

Finally I think it would be good for owners to get feedback forms from the judges. Unless offered very few will ask for this, but there are several owners I have spoken to at events since Basingstoke who have asked me where they lost points (I think because they know I have seen the forms, but my memory is not that good!) and how to improve their score next year. Perhaps this is something that we could do at the next rally, have a guided "Judging a car for concours" presentation by a knowledgeable member, where they talk through a non-concours entry judged as if it were a concours entry?

Jack.

[k. rogers]

At last, proper discussion on the weighting which should be incorporated into the concours judging system. As someone who has been involved in judging at several of our JAWs, I have been saying for some time that the marking system is inappropriate. I would largely agree with what Mike K-O has outlined in his proposed system though it may require tweeking to incorporate the tickover of the vehicle as was judged previously and correctly pointed out by Jack. I absolutely agree that the bodywork on a vehicle should carry at least 45%, even 50% of the total points because as most of you would agree, that is the most difficult work (and most expensive) to get right!

[george garside]

as an associate member and therefore with no vested interest whatsoever in concours marking systems and also as one who has been heavily involved many years ago I will throw in a random thoughts/questions

- The present system does nothing to encourage the totally original lightly conserved vehicles complete with 'period' mods, patinated upholstery, woodwork paint and brightwork etc. . In my view wherever possible ''conservation'' should outrank '' restoration ''. Maybe a separate class for conserved vehicles would cover this with the emphasis of judging being on originality rather than 'gleam'

Another important consideration is should we differentiate between check book restorations and ,say, 80% done by the owner in a lock up garage type of thing. The problem is compounded by ''second hand'' cheque book and lock up restorations i.e. vehicles that were fully restored to cconcours condition prior to purchase by the present owner whose only contribution to the vehicle has been the brass he parted with to aquire it!. Maybe rely on members honesty and have 2 classes , one for 'cheque book' restorations whilst in care of present owner and one for 'lock up'' retorations by present owner. My personal view is vehicles restored prior to present ownership should be entered in a simple 'competition' judged by members of public vote as best or 1,2 & 3rd best vehicle restored prior to present ownership. Something on these lines would encourage the less pecunious owners to get stuck in in the knowledge that they would not be pipped at the post by an expensive professional restoration.

As the vehicles get older originality should be even more important and, to me, there is no place for non original vehicles in a concours , although a separate class , again judged just bhy popular vote could be used for 'specials'. Not sure where if accurate vintage replicas should be.
check book
So fully judged concours would by in 3 classes ( per vehicle type) Best conserved, best 'lock up 'restoration by present owner and best 'check book' restoration by present owner.

As to originality period mods or mods carried out using period accessories should be ignored as should any mods neccessry or desirable to meet current regs eg lighting, discrete flashers, maybe electric fans on twins ?????

As for the actual points system I agree with MKO's revision but think at least a 'tickover' test should be incorporated and possibly an additional dollop of marks for vehicles driven to the event - i.e. a sort of handycap system favouring vehicles in use which is surely one of the aims of the club.

george

[Chris Spencer]

Not quite sure that there would be a class for one of my cars given Georges reasoning - given that I was lucky enough in a former career to be apprenticed in vehicle restoration - so I have the majority of skills to undertake a full restoration - having said that new technology has come about since and I lack experience in TIG welding and 2 pack paint process so most of my skill is in doing it the old but hard way.

Being a Yorkshireman I am unlikely to open a cheque book to restore any of my cars, but then again I have access to workshop facilities & equipment that most Jowett owners don't, I still struggle a lot though to fabricate complex repair / panel sections as I only have some of the kit that I need but then there comes the problem of how often do I need it against how much space does it take up in the workshop !!

So slightly off the thread but in the end it would be impractical to cater for every class / Jowett owner scenario when judging / awarding - we would never get through the amount judging or presentation of the award classes - so what ever is decided it needs to be straight forward system that is clearly defined & understood that caters for the majority of cars presented.

[Keith Clements]

The exec council resolved to put the progression of this discussion to a conclusion in the capable hands of Paul Beaumont and Michael KO. So I guess if you have further comment or lobbying then you should contact them.

I would like to add one further issue and that is the lack of entries into the concours. Any system should encourage members perhaps not to enter a competition (as that might have been distilled out of them in their formative years by the education system) but at least to progress towards one or all of the four goals - originality, elegance, DIY and use.

I, like many, would like to encourage DIY as it is so much more (inwardly) rewarding. It was said yesterday that we would be judging the owner not the car, but we are rewarding the owner as a winner of a competition and that should be our intent. Those with the pretty or elegant cars should show them against other marques to raise the profile of Jowetts and there they will get their reward. Our aim should be to encourage Jowett ownership in all its guises.

Whether that is part of the Concours D'elegance completion is open for discussion. My view is that we have too few cars to hold such a competition for each model, better to incorporate all models in such a competition. We should also identify cars that are considered the most original in each model and to reward use.

I agree with George in that patina is something of great value and should be preferred over brand new. That is not to say a tatty, rust ridden car is to be valued highly.

I think it MUCH more important a car has on it what it should, rather than it has a good paint job. The latter can be achieved by anyone, the former only by careful detective work, painstaking research and sympathy with the passing of time.

[Jack]

Another reminder in this discussion is the shortage of some models in various concours classes. If we make the concours less attractive, or make it more complex or onerous for owners, we may see this drop further.

An inclusive approach is probably the answer. At the last rally there were, for example, only two special bodied cars present, from memory four Standard Javelins, and only three Bradfords. It undermines the value of a concours award perhaps if a trophy is awarded to almost anyone turning up with a particular model (albeit a particularly poor quality vehicle can be excluded) but also it is to be emphasised to the membership that entering a concours competition is an important part of attending a rally, and that just because you don't perceive your own car to be "concours" doesn't mean that it might not add something to the competition or indeed come away with a trophy.

The other thing which worked very well at the last rally was when many people turned up we asked them (quite specifically worded) if they would be prepared for their car to be considered for the concours, and this resulted in a few members opting in who otherwise might not have done if asked to identify themselves at the rally field or stick a note in their car etc.

I also think that DIY vs professional restoration is a red herring in relation to concours. It is so subjective as to be only of relevance perhaps in the event of a tie, which given the new ideas regards scoring should be increasingly unlikely, but do we mark down an absolutely perfect car restored to factory original standard because the owner specified it, researched it, and chose to pay someone else (quite often a JCC member acting in a professional capacity) to do the hard graft? Perhaps if another equally perfect car restored to factory original standard by an owner with their own hands was entered then perhaps this becomes an issue, but frankly our problem does not seem to be separating dozens of perfect cars, our major issue seems to be getting anywhere close to perfect in originality and finish, and getting enough entries for it to be a proper contest.

Let us not forget that the club has awards available for huge restoration efforts, not so long ago Amy won the Horace Grimley Award for her restoration and documentation of it, The People's Award seems to be frequently awarded to cars either mid-restoration or newly completed, and various other awards recognise the greatest mileage in the last 12 months, distance travelled to the rally, and other measures of activity.

Jack.

[george garside]

it might enourage more people to have a go if a could only win once in either concours or premier concourse. that would increase the chances for those who havn't been placed .

Are the many classes and subclasses in any way brought about by the number of cups , shields or whatever to be dished out. Perhaps some should be mothballed and classes merged to make for a more competitive and interesting competition

george

[Jack]

it might enourage more people to have a go if a could only win once in either concours or premier concourse. that would increase the chances for those who havn't been placed .

Are the many classes and subclasses in any way brought about by the number of cups , shields or whatever to be dished out. Perhaps some should be mothballed and classes merged to make for a more competitive and interesting competition

george

Hi George,

I think the many cups and shields are created to meet the many classes and subclasses that we have. The simple solution to speeding up the Saturday and Sunday evening at the rally might be to have a Premier and 1st concours but not 2nd, the sheer number of awards is staggering. Indeed at the rally with only three or four cars entered in a class to award trophies to 75% of entrants seems a bit odd to me.

Maybe if there was another rule that in any class no more than 40% of entrants could be placed, that might encourage a few more members to enter into the concours to make sure that those deserving people who have spent a lot of time on their cars can be recognised for their work with a trophy. In order to award all three trophies the minimum field would be 9 entries, at the last rally that would mean the only class with all three trophies awarded would be Deluxe Javelin and Jupiter.

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

I also think that DIY vs professional restoration is a red herring in relation to concours

Jack I can assure it's far from any 'red herring' and as someone who has judged concours outside of JCC events, rebuilt cars professionally to concours standards for cheque book owners, and also rebuilt award winning cars on a tight budget in poor working conditions - the difference is vast - and as judge I would always up score where I can see the effort made by the owner whilst down scoring for over prepared / over restored cars trailered to events and the latter is nearly always owned by someone that can afford to pay for a professional restoration.

[Jack]

Over-prepared and over-restored is the same as not being up to standard or aged/damaged parts as far as I can see. They are easily marked down as a result. If a car came off the production line without polished brake lines and chromed wheels, it is effectively modified and can be marked down, indeed a car at Basingstoke was marked down for exactly that by the judges.

But the issue of who did the work to me isn't really critical, but depends on why a concours exists - if it is to preserve a number of cars in factory original condition for the preservation of what the car was as it rolled off the production line, then who did the work or paid the money doesn't really matter, we are judging the car, not the owner and their choice of restoration method, if it can actually be traced.

At some point almost everybody in a restoration project has someone else do some work. We, for example, did not chrome our own parts, we did not cut our own carpets (providing templates to a trimmer who cut the carpet for us to fit) and restoration projects will vary from our end of the scale, doing almost everything in house and having the luxury of facilities to do it vs someone who does half of the work themselves but outsources the bodywork, interior or gets someone to rebuild their engine or gearbox for them, vs someone who just opens their wallet and asks a specialist to do the whole lot. How are we to determine how much work someone has done themselves, or indeed can someone measure how much work was done by a previous owner, and are we liable to bias judges against those who might be very open and detailed about what they paid people to do?

Of course when we get to separating two identical cars I agree a quick chat with the owner about their car might reveal a level of detailed work carried out themselves that is to be commended, but I would only use it to separate two cars tied on score where we couldn't get a cigarette paper between them.

Jack.

[george garside]

''we are judging the car'' - yes but we are rewarding the owner who may have done nothing or a great deal to enable the car to 'win'. I agree with much of what Jack has said in regards to problems of differentiating between the two but failure so to do does little to encourage the impecunious lock up restorer to consider it worthwhile entering. To increase the number of entries requires incentives particularly for the owners of bloody good but not marvellous cars!

Perhaps the simplest way of achieving this over a period of time would be to allow one win per car per ?5 ?10 years ( or whatever interval was decided on) i.e. a winning car would not be allowed to enter for ''x'' number of years, irrespective of changes of ownership. This would gradually 'move on' the very 'top' restorations and members would be able to enter knowing the odds were better, in other words it would be more worth their while.

By way of 'compensation' for loss of entry rights for 'x' years past winners could be invited to display their vehicles in an 'exclusive' group of ''Past concours winners '' or whatever it should be called and this group could form a centre piece of the gathering.

each ( of the possibly simplified classes) would achieve a different winner every year plus second place of a very good vehicle and 3rd of one that with a bit more fettling could be a winner - or something like that!

Classifications could be consolidated to just 3 as used on the first National Jowett Day in Bradford i.e. overhead valve, side valve, & none standard or specials.
with awards for the 1st 3 vehicles in each class. Other good but non placed entries achieving 70 or 80% of possible points could be awarded a 'commendation' certificate or rosette or both as recognition and encouragement

I think such a simplified process would reduce the burden on the organisers and judges and bring a 'lets enjoy it and have a go' spirit to the concours.

George (who likes to keep things simple)

[chapman]

Unfortunately I was out of the country so I could not attend the exec meeting but because of this I was not able to give my feelings about matters and during the concours at Sywell I had to produce my own sheet because the copyright of JCC lies with JCC and I did not have time to ask if I could use it.
Concours means something different to each and every member but it can only be a snapshot of that few minutes when you are competing and of course Sandra is exactly right what do you want polished cheque book cars or accurate cars.
At Sywell we wanted to provide some competition and to have some fun and at the end of the day the best cars probably won but there were only about 10 points difference between the best and the worst and the winner was the only one with a correct tool kit,
You will never please everyone in the way you choose to judge a concours event but the JCC sheet does it about 99% right and history of the marque supports the changes made by Jowetts during the production runs which can differentiate each model
An additional point this year was that I requested the judges to have the owner present during the inspection and to explain why he had taken away points so the entire process was transparent
Tom Chapman

[Forumadmin]

For many years JCC operated a Premier Concours class for past winners. But with so few cars available, let alone entering competition, there are too many classes and not enough cars in each to make real meaningful competitions.
What would be useful are critical reports on cars that detail all things good and bad and form part of the club register that would be available for sellers to use. Of course, these would only be a snapshot and would contain a disclaimer but still would be useful.
I watched Scott doing such a critical analysis of Neil Belk's Jupiter and Tim Brown on Amy's car it is apparent that such analysis may not be all positive.