1930 Jowett vehicles

[ian Howell]

In 1966 I bought the remains of a 1930 Jowett Long Four Fabric Saloon as a retirement project. I eventually started to repair (NOT restore) it in 2004 and earlier this year I managed to get it 'back on the road' although it still needs its fabric 'skin' and the interior will have to be retrimmed and re-upholstered.

I have quite a few posts on Jowett.org including cross references to a couple of YouTube videos which might amuse!

Researching its history I found that 1930 was a pivotal year for Jowetts and that that year's models were significantly different from both 1929 and 1931.

Here in the UK I have managed to get details of about ten 1930 vehicles and I have been in contact with Alastair Burney 'over there' and I now have details of his car on file. Thanks again Alastair.

I believe that Ray Win has a 1930 lorry and that there may be another lorry and possibly a couple more cars in NZ.

Purely for my own interest I would be grateful for details of any of these vehicles - Chassis numbers (starting with a '0' of course), and body type/colours, then engine numbers (possibly not original) and the initials stamped into the crankcase next to the oil filler pipe.

These are the initials of the man who 'set up' the engine before it was fitted to the vehicle. My car's are 'LT' indicating Luther Tidswell.

As we approach autumn I guess the rally season is just starting 'down under'. I hope you all have a successful Jowetteering year.

Thank you in anticipation

Ian Howell

[ian Howell]

Just a quick update for anyone following my progress.

Well, not much actually! I managed to get my 1930 fabric Long Four to half a dozen local rallies without incident and I 'clocked up' about 200 miles in total.

This revealed DREADFUL noises from the gearbox which I have since removed, rebuilt with new bearings and refitted.

Unfortunately, although I have managed to drive it 'round the block', I haven't had a decent run so I don't know if t is fixed or not.

A recent offer on eBay UK was a job lot of 11 pre-war brake shoes. The lot was closed early with no bids so I missed the chance to buy, but I contacted the vendor and learned a lot.

Apparently there were TWO TYPES of brake shoes fited in the pre-war period, early ones taking 1/8" linings and later ones 3/16" linings.

I am told by the leading authority here that it is impossible to tell which is which - even if you have them both in your hand (Unless, I suppose, the linings are not so worn as to be unidentifiable.

It gets worse! The thinner linings are no longer available, so in order to avoid confusion and possibly compromising brake design and efficiency, the UK club is 'tooling up' to produce new shoes to take the thicker linings.

Is this a problem that has arisen - and possibly been solved - in NZ?

[Forumadmin]

Ian,
I do not think you have read this. Posted recently!

[ian Howell]

Yes. Actually I think I started raising the questions. I am trying to establish EXACTLY what is the difference and I wondered if anyone had encountered/overcome the problem in NZ where I know there are a few 30's and pre-war vehcles.

The 'selection' on eBay included both types and some of each had been relined and were unused. This seemed a good starting place.

[The Bradford man]

I will ask my dad ( Chris ) if he knows any one that has the problems with brake shoes.
Dad used to own Alastair Burneys 1930 black prince and the 7 that Ray Win turned into the van.
Currently Im working on building a 1931 truck from a load of parts and Dad is working on a 1935 7.
Done front axle and yet to finish rear axle, have yet to do brakes on both.

I may take a while to reply. Very busy sorting out my wedding that is on a week tomorrow.
Using 3 prewar Jowetts for wedding cars, two 10s and a 8

[ian Howell]

James: -

Thanks for the reply. First of all - congratulations on the nuptials! I hope all goes well with you both (and the cars of course).

No urgency for a definitive reply as I have still got quite a few loose ends to sort out here and all this is secondary to getting my car fettled for the season.

It does seem strange that this anomaly has only just arisen, bearing in mind how long Jowetteers have been working on these cars. There is always room to learn.

By the way - if your dad is working on brakes, the earlier posts here relating to lever angles etc. may be of interest or assistance.

I will certainly 'post' any definitive information I gather.

[Keith Clements]

This conversation is also being carried on between Marcel, myself , Michael K-O and Ian P. as well as Tony on the other thread on this subject. There is another possibility that drums were skimmed, though there is not much meat on them to start with! Ian says he cannot tell the difference by looking at the shoes, but I would have thought measuring with a vernier would show up the difference. There are yet other possibilities such as the manufacturing tolerances were not that good or that Jowetts suffered from Friday syndrome like Coventry!

This really shows you what hard work JCS have to put in to satisfy you. So let us give them as much help as we can. JCS have a solution which is to remanufacture shoes with linings, but at £350 a set it will make some of you think twice. JCS can reline shoes.

If Marcel's car is 1936 and he knows the brake shoes are original they should be "small" shoes capable of taking the thicker 3/16" linings. We can get them relined with this material but if the shoes cannot be fitted with the new lining on it means that the shoes must be of the larger earlier type. However, he will still have to pay for these shoes at a total cost of £70 for 2 axle sets even if they do not fit. Ian Priestley says there is no way of telling the larger shoe from a smaller shoe as the difference is so small and shoes get slightly warped and worn with age. This is why we have had shoes remanufactured as they are a safety related item.

M K-O.

[Keith Clements]

I would like to add to Ian's comment about warped shoes. I have seen a few of these on Jav/Jup and am usually alerted by uneven wear on the lining, but that is not always a good indicator if the shoes have been on long time as the linings will have bedded in. However, during that bedding-in brakes may not have been pulling evenly. So fitting new linings to warped shoes (or warped back plates come to that) may give you uneven braking. If a road test does not make it immeadiately obvious as to which corner is the problem, then examination of the linings should reveal where to investigate.

A jig is needed to fix the problem. So should we make one?

[Tony Fearn]

This is a copy of my post on another section.

Re: Brake shoes on Ebay
by Tony Fearn » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:09 am

Ian wrote:
"A recent offer on eBay UK was a job lot of 11 pre-war brake shoes. Apparently there were TWO TYPES of brake shoes fited in the pre-war period, early ones taking 1/8" linings and later ones 3/16" linings. I am told by the leading authority here that it is impossible to tell which is which - even if you have them both in your hand as to be unidentifiable".

Is it possible that all the brake shoes were all the same, and the internal diameter of the brake drums were different?? ......Discuss.

Tony.

[ian Howell]

Tony: -

You may have found a new answer. My drums are clearly marked inside by a chalked message '10" + 1/16 + .020'

1/16" seems a lot to remove for a 'rebore'of a brake drum - perhaps two rebores of 1/32" each then a third of 0.020", but even this seems to indicate excessive use.

Does this shed any light - or just add to the fog?

As ever - we shall see!

[The Bradford man]

James: -

Thanks for the reply. First of all - congratulations on the nuptials! I hope all goes well with you both (and the cars of course).

No urgency for a definitive reply as I have still got quite a few loose ends to sort out here and all this is secondary to getting my car fettled for the season.

It does seem strange that this anomaly has only just arisen, bearing in mind how long Jowetteers have been working on these cars. There is always room to learn.

By the way - if your dad is working on brakes, the earlier posts here relating to lever angles etc. may be of interest or assistance.

I will certainly 'post' any definitive information I gather.

Thanks Ian.
We replaced Layrub on the 10 yesterday. A lot less vibration than before.
Dad has not come across that problem before on any of the 7s he's worked on so far

[ian Howell]

Anyone with an interest in pre-war Jowett brakes - watch this space!

I am preparing a scenario that I think fits all the criteria so far identified, but until I get back home (possibly next weekend, I am in wet Wales again!) I cannot be sure.

[ian Howell]

Well, back home now and my original theory appears not to hold up: -

To recap: -

Early (How early?) brakes had a tendency to squeal. This may have become more evident when front wheel brakes were introduced in 1930 (29?). A set of drums that I acquired from Alan Benewith's collection had HUGE hose clips around the outside, I assume to reduce/eliminate squealing.

When Jowetts changed to thicker linings in 1935/36? Surely it would have been simpler/cheaper to bore out the drums a little larger (possibly new foundry moulds needed, but not too expensive). Might this also have raised the resonant frequency of the drums and thereby reduced the squealing problem?

They appear to have chosen to have smaller brake shoes produced. As these are die cast aluminium, the tooling costs must have been significant. Perhaps this approach taken because the 'new' shoes had to fit, and work on, earlier car's brakes. Does anyone know if this also cured the squealing?

The only way the 1/16" thicker linings could be accomodated would be by reducing the 'height' of the curved lining support surface above the datum of the operating 'cam' (flat plate) and the shoe pivot.

So, given suitable supports at each of the datum points it should be possible to distinguish between the two shoe thicknesses. Shouldn't it?

Discuss.