Jowett Bradford, Javelin, Jupiter and Pre-War Spares

[Mike Allfrey]

To: All Jowett Enthusiasts Worldwide

This topic may be in the wrong place in this Jowett Talk Forum, but no doubt our Administrator will move it to an appropriate place - or bin it.

INTRODUCTION

I have been churning over in my mind, E-mails and vocally, my thoughts on the current Jowett spare parts situation. It is my belief that, over the years many Jowett motor vehicles have endured maintenance methods propagated by those 'Who Did Not Know', which have resulted in situations where we find a bodger has executed his/her art in the past. Mutilated major components, and the presence of battered tab washers, castle nuts bearing hammer bruises from over-enthusiastic split pin installation, the horrors of castle nuts on axle tapers that have been loosened off for split pin access and the now commonly found rounded-off bolt heads and nuts. All signs of what I call bodgerism (but the spelling check thing has no knowledge of the term, but I am sure that most of our readers do!).

The Artful Bodger has struck many times in years past.

All of these and many more instances, have placed our spare parts supply in what I believe to be a precarious position. Therefore, it is time that all Jowett clubs join together and really work together to resolve the spare parts situation. It is also time for the pre-War, Bradford, javelin and Jupiter factions to come together for a single cause - the Jowett Marque. Let's have none of the, "I have a Bradford, so my membership subscription should not be squandered on Javelin spare parts projects.", attitudes. We are in this together and, together we need to help make Jowett ownership a great deal easier - for all of us.

When I say Jowett enthusiasts worldwide, I mean just that - every Jowett car club that exists should be in open conversation about sourcing spare parts. The Internet (this Jowett Talk) is the best avenue for making progress on the matters to be considered. I am trying to get to grips with this Jowett Talk as time permits. I really hope to be more involved here, somehow.

CASTINGS

This heading has been chosen as an example because, for many years, this topic has been worrying me. I have a very strong belief that we should opt for manufacture of new crankcase sets, be they Javelin, Bradford or pre-War models. Such a project needs to be handled by those out there who are skilled in creating working drawings, pattern making, mould making, pouring castings, machining the castings and, finally, properly inspecting them and maintaining a standard of quality for our membership to trust. There are enthusiasts within our clubs who have contributed a worthy supply of spare parts. For an item like a crankcase, or a Bradford intake manifold, we need skilled (all the way through the manufacturing process) suppliers who need to make an honest profit.

Let us also consider certain upgrades based on serious, not fanciful, experience of being deeply involved with Jowett motor vehicles.

For such a project to be successful we desperately require commitment from the membership. Personally, I would be just as happy if a vintage Jowett could be saved by access to a new crankcase, as I would for similar for my Jupiter - but that is me.

COSTS

Cost of major components that have been manufactured can be, to some of us, prohibitive. However the Jowett marque depends for its survival on what we can do to help with that survival. If we all pull together and forget the idea that parts for Jowetts should be cheap, or even free. That is no longer the case. All Jowetts are worthy of being up there with other marques that enjoy good spare parts supply through the manufacture of new parts and assemblies. My suggestion, as a start, is that we all contribute to a fund to be managed by Jowett Car Spares, and that all knowledge and assistance from club members be donated free to such a fund.

To some of us, that could be quite frightening, but the survival of our beloved Jowett marque could well be worth a contribution of a thousand quid each to get a manufacturing scheme up and running. To me, all Jowetts are more than worthy of being up there with the likes of Jaguar, MG, Austin-Healey, Triumph and such.

CONCLUSION

It is possible that all of the foregoing treads on toes and may be correctly seen as not being relevant. However, it is also very likely that we are looking at the bottom of the proverbial barrel for such items as crankcases, crankshafts, cylinder heads, gearbox parts, suspension components and steering systems just for starters.

Feel free to howl me down on this topic! I know that I am bleating in the wilderness.

Kind Regards,

Mike Allfrey.
JCC (UK), JOAC (UK) and Jowett Car Club of Australia Inc.

[Keith Clements]

THANKS MIKE FOR THE CONTRIBUTION.
Hopefully we will get some input from others on the subject. I do not think the situation is too bad on the communication front. All the spares teams are co-operating on a limited scale with exchange of parts and supply of new parts . There is a project being managed by JOAC on a spare parts list and it would be good to get feedback on how they are progressing. (I think they are using your list as a starting point!) All spares teams and Bill Lock have contributed.

JCC produced a dozen or so pairs of cylinder blocks a couple of years ago and some lessons were learned but after some extra work some pairs are operational. They have also produced inlet manifolds for pre-war and Bradford I think. It would be good to learn all the new parts sourced by all the clubs and other suppliers . I think we would be surprised at how much work has been done.

I have spent time in most of the spare parts sheds in UK, America, Australia and New Zealand (North and South Island) and there is definitely some work to be done on sharing the used old stock and used parts as in some cases new parts are being manufactured when a stash of new old stock is available elsewhere. Of course, the main issue is transport. Whenever I go I always bring back stuff for Jowett Car Spares in the UK or my own stock that often gets shared with friends.

The problem is time for the volunteers that are willing, and can do, the jobs that are required. I have loads of spares and have a list of them on my computer, but it is incredibly difficult to maintain control of the stock. We have collected loads of parts from various places and taken them to JCS but then there is the task of identifying, sorting and checking them before making them available. You must know because you ran the Aus spares scheme for many years. One of the main issues is the technical knowledge required to specify and quality control any supply.

Back to the subject of crankcases. There were a limited number of orders when it was announced that they were to be manufactured. They only just made the minimum number to make the project viable. That situation is now getting worse as suppliers are demanding ever greater minimum order quantities.

There is a special interest group on JowettTalk called 'SPARES' for those involved with the spares teams worldwide. It is not currently active, probably because they prefer to communicate via email or phone.

[Srenner]

I fully support the concept of unification of the spares worldwide. The easier it is to access a parts supply, the better it will be to engage new members, keep cars on the road and in the public eye.

We have several hurdles, starting with setting priorities not only among clubs, but among models, superseding part numbers, etc.. My personal pet peeve is quality. Too many of the re-popped parts are poorly made, oversize, undersize or just wrong. True of many of the Moss Motors parts that interchange with Jowett parts.

The US is the hard nut to crack, as we just can't keep any coherence of the owners. On top of that, only Jups and a handful of Javs are here, so getting the owners to pay for parts not intended for their cars will be challenging.

Next step?

[Alastair Gregg]

Mike, Well spoken. I think it is a better way forward than each club doing its own thing.

Idea!

First step would be to get the names and contact details of each of the clubs stock control specialists for them to communicate and state what they are working on to initially check there is no duplication and or NOS available.

Getting agreement from round the world is time consuming, I recall the Legacy project took months, but for something this important well worth the effort.

Good call Mike

[PJGD]

Well said, Mike!
I am in full support of this initiative, although several problems in realizing it must be overcome.

Probably, Mikes letter should appear in all of the Jowett-related print newsletters as well so that the message gets full visibility.

Because I actually work in the automotive industry for a living, I am sure that I can make a meaningful contribution when it comes to identifying appropriate suppliers.

I am also strongly in favour of implementing modern solutions to our many legacy problems, without however changing the visual appearance where possible.

As it happens, I did sign up to be a member of the Spares Special Interest group that Keith mentioned, but if there has been any activity in this group, I am unaware of it.

There are some, perhaps many components that would be candidates for manufacture by Additive Manufacture (also called 3D Printing) which is coming into widespread use, in place of conventional machining (reduction manufacture). It requires the parts to be rendered in 3D CAD, but once generated, small batch production can be straightforward. Candidate examples might be the Javelin/Jupiter rear light glass lens, or perhaps adapters that allow modern LED bulbs to be installed in original lamp sockets. You can probably think of many other possibilities.

Philip

[Keith Clements]

Alastair,
The clubs' stock control specialists and their supporters do communicate, but they probably prioritise satisfying orders and so do not spend enough time on more strategic matters.

The key to success is to communicate. When they telephone each other they usually do not record or share the conversation which means it is not possible for anybody else to help. If each records the conversation electronically afterwards that helps but they then need to share the record.

Although email conversations record the dialogue they still need to be shared which can be done to a limited number of people via cc, but this does not allow those excluded to contribute.

Whilst some conversations may need some restriction on publicity most could (and should) be shared amongst club members.

The JowettTalk forum in my opinion is the ideal medium for such communication as it can limit publicity to club members (either individual clubs or members of all 5 Jowett clubs.) JT can also have a special interest group where users can apply to join. In theory all existing group members could vote on whether the application is accepted but that is probably too draconian a process.

Publicity can also be restricted to registered users which includes those interested in Jowetts who are not necessarily club members.

Note that you can ask JT to notify you of any change to any topic or forum section so that you are more able to follow what is going on.

I would suggest that we address the issue in our club meetings and see how each of us can help. If you cannot get to a face to face meeting then perhaps encourage (by telephone or email) someone in the spares team to read this thread or suggest they appoint someone in the team to act as a communicator to this wider audience. All the guys in the spares team are dedicated and generous people giving up their time for us. We just need more of them. The way to do that is to widen the scope of co-operation and not require proximity to the spares store.

Perhaps a monthly international Skype conference. An on-line database of parts. All easy to set up, but it just needs some co-operation.

[Chris Spencer]

Gentleman - You making some incorrect assumptions here - certainly in the case of JCS whom are very hard at work on whole range of projects with the regards to parts supply for both current & future parts stock requirements - I believe that JCS are very much aware of what is required / expected along with what can be practically delivered - I was physically at JCS this week - and witnessed the behind the scenes work of the team who never stop still - to assume just because the JCS volunteers go about there duties without parading / detailing everything that they currently have in the pipeline, that they do not have a strategy or that they are too busy fulfilling current demand for parts to think about what maybe required for the future is quite incorrect - they involve members has they need to and I am a firm believer of 'too many cooks' - should you have issues I would firmly encourage you to talk to the JCS team directly - I have direct experience of the team work at JCS and I cannot fault them - for example they have recently put into production a small batch of panels for a Bradford that I am restoring and supplied an extensive list of parts to me for various models over the last 12 months without issue. I am quite sure that if they require help they will be requesting it - whilst on the surface you may think that you are helping personally I see this has undermining the work of a very strong team.

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

Chris, you make some very good points. The UK club does, of course have a spares levy scheme that is funded by all full members and, whilst the pot is not enormous, JCS does take great care over how it is spent. There are many pressures over spare parts supply. JCS principal mode of operation is to try to keep MOT/general service required parts available for as many models as possible. Then they try to maintain supplies of major overhaul parts for the most plentiful models. Hence the recent investment in cylinder liners and small end bushes for Javelins and Jupiters.
Next JCS stocks repair panels for Javelin and Jupiter. After that the parts stocked are pretty much driven by demand. Over the past year JCS has supplied 3 engine sets of pistons for pre-war/vintage models. That has consumed all of the JCS stock and that of the major UK supplier. JCS has a quote to make these, but must commit to 6 engine sets - about £2000. Now it is a sure bet that if JCS proceeds and then advertises these as available someone will call saying why did you make these - I have 20 off on my shelf. I believe that this is the major spares problem - members sitting on personal stocks of parts - in case they need them one day. I am not suggesting that the spares schemes hoover all of these parts up, but the knowledge of their availability and an indication of a member's willingness to share them if needed would be fantastic.
I fear that anyone taking on a basket case vehicle - even a Javelin will probably need to accept that they will have to get some parts made personally. That said I believe that the spares support for most Jowett vehicles is a great deal better than for some much more recent motors - try getting parts for an early Vauxhall Nova for example and you will soon see what I mean

[Forumadmin]

Paul has identified a problem: there are spares available on people's shelves (that they will probably never use).
So how do we solve it?
In my visits to the US, AUS and NZ spares sheds I noticed such collections of parts that are not available in the UK. Some I 'liberated' but redistribution would be a much better idea. This may not mean transporting them now as this might waste transport costs. Perhaps wait until there is a definite order when the specific member requiring the part organises transport or it is done on their behalf by the club spares team.

How do we know what is available?
Have a shared database of parts. That could start with the list from each club and be extended by information about member's personal stock.
This can be supplemented with publishing in club mags and JowettTalk if certain parts are in short supply.

Paul also said that members may have to get parts made. Well when they do they should be encouraged to make some spares for others. An international process to do this should be set up. That encouragement should extend to technical support on specification and design if required. This is why we have technical drawings in the Gallery and why we have lists of possible suppliers and services in the Forum. There are also many tips in the experiences recorded in the forum during rebuilds. But there are still many holes in our knowledge and capability to supply the spares required.

I really do not think we are in the 'too many cooks' situation and we should encourage ANY offer of assistance from whichever part of the world it comes from.

[Chris Spencer]

My referral to 'Too Many Cooks' is in the respect of JCS - like I have already stated I don't think that JCS need to involve everybody in what they have in the pipeline - by doing so you end up with a multitude of opinions , convoluted discussions of how, where, when, who, quality, cost of what the product is - this just places undue burden / substantial delays in the process of getting the part (s) manufactured in the first place (having spent a considerable length of my career within project management / project delivery you will not convince me otherwise) - leave the members that volunteer / devote their time to JCS and the supply / remake of Jowett parts to get on with the task in hand - I am sure if they need any help they will make the membership aware of the requirement.

Paul has identified an area within which they do require the memberships help - where members / former members hold a personal stock which maybe in excess of what they would ever utilise in their own lifetime - and this is where we should be channelling our resource.

[Tony Fearn]

I've a feeling that this topic should be aired in the various Jowetteer mags of the several Jowett Clubs around the world.
Perhaps Mike's original (and first post on the subject this time round) could be printed simultaneously in a specified future edition of the various Club magazines.
At the moment, apart from me in this post, we have Mike, Scott, and Philip, and UK members Keith, Alastair and Paul, i.e. six people, contributing to the discussion.
Subsequent comments (posts), suitably edited, could follow in future editions.
There are many hundreds of other Jowetteers out there, some with 'huggings of spares', to quote our much missed friend Ian Priestley, who may wish to join the conversation.
Perhaps the greater majority of the holders of all these spare parts, wherever they are in the world, don't actually access JowettTalk!!
Tony.

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

I fear that an element of reality need to be injected into this thread. There were only ever (numbers rounded for simplicity) 29000 Javelins and 1000 Jupiters. There were 40000 Bradfords and Bradford production closely paralleled all other Jowett vehicle production put together.
If we are generous and say that there is a survival rate of 10% that means a spares market place of 3000 Javelin/Jupiters, 4000 Bradfords and about 1000 Prewar vehicles. The cost of making every part available for such a small market would be absolutely prohibitive. Now wearing my JCS hat: We are more than aware that there are some time bombs in the system. Javelin/Jupiter gear boxes, and cylinder heads - both, in my opinion constitute more of a threat than crankcases. JCS did manufacture some crankcases before my time and several of these are running successfully but since we sold all of these we have satisfied every request for crank cases with second hand parts and to be quite honest at the present time I get more requests for petrol tanks than I do for crankcases.
As for Bradford inlet manifolds, JCS has so many CB/CC manifolds that we could almost do a BOGOF on them. Not many CA's, but then you can count the number of running vehicles on the fingers of one hand.
I think that relying on members reading this thread is pretty futile as - as Tony points out - only 1% of the membership is contributing to it
Probably almost as futile is the JCS section in the Jowetteer. I have, in the forthcoming copy, advertised for NOS pistons, but do not expect the phone to ring off its hook as most will not read the message.
JCS is trying to record requests for parts that we do not stock with a view to holding stock, but by guess, I reckon JCS fulfils over 90% of the parts orders received - we have over 1000 feet of racking with locations occupying an average about 4" each so we do hold a large number of lines and are about to purchase more racking to extend the inventory - largely with recovered s/h parts.
My message to the membership is tell your local spares organisation what you need and see if they stock/can source it. you might be surprised.

[ian Howell]

I'm leased to see that this thread is generating a bit of interest.

Not wishing in any way to detract from the excellent services provided by JCS, from which I have benefited on more than one occasion, I may be able to make a modest contribution; -

I have successfully replaced the track rod end ball on my 1930 Long Four with a component 'rescued' from a Vauxhall suspension drop link. (I got two from one link).

The rescued item needed to be modified from a screw fitting to a rivetted, or peened fixing but size-wise it was apparently a perfect fit.

I also needed one piston ring when I checked the engine during my repair programme.

A complete set was available from JCS but being of limited funds (or just mean!) I looked for a commercially available substitute.

On a well-known auction site I found a part set of rings for a Skoda Estelle, which were for 75.5mm bores.

As mine are still 75.4 but a bit worn, I figured that 0.1mm being 4 thou, with careful gapping they would do the job.

I fitted the ONE ring I needed and so far, about 1000 miles later, all seems well with reasonable compression on both cylinders. And I now have at least two more cylinders worth of spare rings. Should see me out!

I believe there is a BMC B Series engine that equates to 75.4mm when a certain oversize?

Where this kind of substitution is possible, with or without modification to the component, this might ease the pressure on limited stocks at JCS, or even allow for stocks to be established.

Am I leaning on an open door?

[Keith Clements]

There was a discussion a couple of years ago in the 'Club Discussion Section'
Here is an extract.

How do we know what spares will be needed over the next 10 years?
How do we find out what spares are currently available from the clubs and suppliers?
How do we find out what spares are in personal collections and thus might become available or not be required to be purchased from the spares scheme?
How do we decide what to manufacture or purchase?
How do we decide how to manufacture and where?
How many do we make?
How do we finance tooling costs?
How do we market and sell what we have?
How do we find out what spares are available for refurbishment?

These and other similar questions are asked and partially answered separately across the globe. But what we really need for such a small marque is a global process for supply of spares.
You would be amazed at what can be sourced but you will also be amazed at how much cannot.

Paul has made a stab at predicting demand but a more accurate way would be to estimate the following: (Questions which are often asked but we do not have good answers, I fear)
We need to do this for each model of Jowett.
1. How many cars do we have on our registers?
2. How many of those are running and thus need 'maintenance' parts?
3. How many cars are likely to need 'restoration' or major rebuild parts?
4. How many cars do we think are out there not owned by club members and likely to require spares in the next 5 years?
The latter is probably the biggest source of revenue as new (or current) members get their new acquisitions to the state they would like them.

The next part of the demand answer is to estimate the quantity of each part likely to be needed. As Paul has said there are many parts so sources of data to help answer this question are as follows:
1. What parts (and the quantity) has each club spares scheme (and supplier who co-operates in this fact finding venture) sold in the last 5 years?
2. What parts have we been asked for and not been able to source?
3. What parts are likely to be needed when rebuilding mechanical components?
4. What parts are likely to be needed when restoring a car?

On the last two bullets we have recently acquired some knowledge on some models and naturally with so many required parts, discovered which non-available parts stalled the rebuild.

At some point we have to curtail the data collection and make some decisions on what we should source and stock. The more data we have the more informed the decision and hopefully the more efficiently we will use our time and finances.

The supply question can also benefit from data collection and collation.
1. Do we all know what parts each club and supplier has? Of particular interest is the new old stock, but repairable used stock should also be listed as Chris intimated.
2. Do we share and compare all the sources of supply for new stock and thus pool our buying for most cost effective procurement?
3. Can we do more to find out what stocks might be available that we do not have? This may be from members or other car clubs or other businesses.

[paul wilks]

Interesting stuff! And I recall some years ago a plea for info on spares held by individual members as well as the storage of slow moving (stationary?) parts by the volunteers at JCS who are doing us a marvellous service. I know- I've used them enough!
Anyway I duly sent to 'someone' (can't remember who because it was a long time ago) a list of parts I hold, most of which I want to keep but which could be loaned if someone wanted to make a pattern for example.
Just a thought. I still have the list if anyone would find it useful.

Paul