Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Sporty talk! email JCC UK and JOAC Registrar. Technical Question? Try Service Bulletins or TechNotes or Tech Library first. Note that you need to be a club member to view the Tech Library.. Parts book
Thanks to those who voted for the Jowett Jupiter as Practical Classic's Car of the Year 2010. Read the saga of why the SC deserved to win on JowettTalk-Great SC rebuild or Amy's call to action.
Post Reply
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20389
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum
Contact:

Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Forumadmin »

The next stage of preparation for 2023 Le Mans started today.


Peter Leopold came around mainly to discuss the overdrive location but also the ramifications on lap times, top speed down the Mulsanne and eligibility.

Peter and I looked at the dimensioned picture from Overdrive Spares who do a stand alone O/D unit . I cut out a silouhette of the unit to see if it would fit to replace the front propshaft.
20221013_172225.jpg
The folded section is where it protudes above the floor.
20221013_172335.jpg
20221013_172326.jpg
Looks OK with space to fit a short prop at the front and behind wher we will retain the midship bearing.
Peter also brought me an O/D I think built by Abbey motors.
20221013_172416.jpg
20221013_172424.jpg
20221013_172432.jpg
20221013_172452.jpg
Chris Spencer came around later to pick up some taps and die to do the torsion bar adjuster and brought me pictures of Drummond's O/D conversion.
20221013_173116.jpg
20221013_173107.jpg
20221013_173033.jpg
Richard uses a Triumph TR box which has overdrive. This must be mounted at 90deg and have a floor change.

The crown wheel and pinions manufactured by JOAC cause a loud whine due to wrong cutting as GArth Wright discovered. Since 3HA bits are hard to come by Garth used a 4HA axle for which he has documemted the modifications with a Jaguar gear set.
Keith Clements
websitedesign
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 am
Your interest in the forum: Jup NKD 258, the most widely travelled , raced and rallied Jowett.
Given Name: Keith
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Keith Clements »

The rotation of the TR box does not apply to the overdrive which must be kept vertical. Otherwise the hydraulic pump will not work.
skype = keithaclements ;
Srenner
Posts: 547
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Like to look at pictures
Given Name: Scott
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Srenner »

Just happen to have a Jupiter overdrive unit on the bench. The adaptor was built by Neil Moore et al in NZ and appears similar to Drummond's in the pictures above.

Overall layout of the parts.
DSC03121.JPG
The coupler. Bored slightly undersize and key way cut in shafts and coupler to ensure a tight fit. One side slotted and machined for hex head bolts to clamp the shafts.
DSC03125.JPG
DSC03136.JPG
The area allowing rearward movement of the selector shafts was too deep. One of the shafts moved so far that the detent balls popped out, so a screw/locknut was installed to limit travel. Keith and I did a similar fix on one of his standard gearboxes.
DSC03131.JPG
DSC03132.JPG
The rear mount uses AH Sprite gearbox mounts that are abundant and cheap.
DSC03133.JPG
Kept the o/d speedo drive by using a MGB angle adapter. Had the speedo calibrated to match the o/d and it reads accurately at all times.
DSC03134.JPG
My concern was that the coupler would be out of balance given the machine work done. The crank balance shop took the assembled mainshaft/coupler/overdrive shaft and removed material from the heavy side of the coupler. Many questions on how true the assembly would be. After about 6k miles of use, the shaft has just the slightest rotation to a heavy spot when tested. On the right side are marks from removing material on the coupler.
DSC03137.JPG
Nick Webster
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:38 pm
Your interest in the forum: Jowett Javelin Registrar
Given Name: Nick
Location: Cromer, Norfolk UK
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Nick Webster »

Keith,

There were two types of overdrive fitted to the Triumph TR. As far as I can see by the solenoid that is the later TR6 style J type?

Nick
JCC Member
PJGD
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:58 am
Your interest in the forum: A Jowett owner since 1965; Javelins, Bradford, and Jupiter (current). Interested in all things Jowett.
Given Name: Philip
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by PJGD »

Agreed, it looks like a J-Type overdrive; the one that I have is from a Volvo.
My O/D input shaft is common with the gearbox mainshaft [see photo] and is machined from the existing tail shaft.
Laycock Overdrive Input Shaft.png
Philip Dingle
aka, PJGD
Srenner
Posts: 547
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Like to look at pictures
Given Name: Scott
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Srenner »

The one I posted is a J-type. The donor mainshaft was cut to mate to the Jowett. My quick and very dirty calculation is that the rear of the Jowett shaft could be machined into an o/d shaft. Finding the machinist willing to try is a challenge.
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20389
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum
Contact:

Coefficient of Drag

Post by Forumadmin »

https://www.austinsevenfriends.co.uk/fo ... p?tid=1053

From a Javelin owner in NZ.
It looks like the Javelin with quite a large cross sectional area but a low CD of .387 and 50 BHP could get to a max speed of 80 mph
What is the cross sectional area and CD of a Jupiter in race trim and with 100 bhp going to have as a top speed?
Then perhaps we can decide on axle ratios. We reckon we can develop that bhp at 6000 rpm with some judicial tweaking.
Keith Clements
websitedesign
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 am
Your interest in the forum: Jup NKD 258, the most widely travelled , raced and rallied Jowett.
Given Name: Keith
Contact:

Rear axle replacing 3HA with 4HA or 7HA

Post by Keith Clements »

rear_axle.jpg
In 2012/3 Garth Wright modified the rear axle to take a 4HA crown wheel and pinion of ratio 4.1:1 made for a Jaguar XJ6.
New custom-made half-shafts were manufactured and fitted, different housing etc obtained for the crown wheel and pinion obtained from a Reliant Scimitar.
See full details here on page 15

After quite a few years trying to achieve a quiet rear axle for my Jupiter, I eventually had to re-assess my options, having decided that I couldn’t live with the irritating noise any longer. I re-directed my quest, having to hand at this time one spare axle with worn standard 4.56:1 ratio CWP gear set, and the axle in the car with a new 4.11:1 ratio CWP gearset from a batch made a few years ago.
This latter axle had proved impossible to set without a high pitched whine on the overrun and general meshing noise, even with numerous time consuming and expensive adjustments of pinion pre-load tension and gear setting.
Salisbury 3HA gearsets are not in supply, the other early cars which used them (Morgan, early Jaguar XK120, and Aston Martin DB etc.) having long since been up-rated to the stronger Salisbury 4HA units, which continued to be used by Jaguar and other sports cars for many years continuing through the E-type and other IRS models.
I had read of the Mike Alfrey’s Ford Falcon conversion, and Neil Hood in Australia kindly answered my enquiries with useful photos of his Volvo axle conversion, although this was for a much higher ratio to suit fitting 15 inch wheels.
However it did give me the inspiration to proceed along the same lines of grafting a differential with available gears onto the Jupiter axle tubes.
I decided to follow the Jaguar 4HA route. The 4HA gears and differential parts are larger, so you cannot just re-machine the 3HA casing. 4HA gearsets of many different ratios are available, though rarer unless very high Jaguar prices are paid – but they are out there! Specifically, high quality Jaguar sets were supplied up to at least 4.55:1 for some E-types.
I wanted if possible to stay with the 4.11 ratio that had at least been the one good point of my noisy 3HA set.
To recount the whole project researches with ups and downs would fill a book and not all be good reading, so herewith a brief summary of what was actually done.
Ingredients: Donor items noting parts used from each:
· One spare Jupiter rear axle. Parts used: Axle tubes with suspension mountings, handbrake/Panhard rod bracket, hub fittings and via e-bay:
· One rigid Salisbury 4HA back axle ex-Reliant Scimitar. Parts used: Differential casing and the internal differential spacer/thrust block only
· One Jaguar XJ6 IRS differential unit with 4.1:1 ratio later series ‘thick crownwheel’ CWP gearset. Parts used: All internal gears and differential parts, pressed steel back cover with integral breather.
New custom parts:
· Two new halfshafts were made in EN24T with induction-hardened splines, to my custom design to match the Jupiter hub ends to the larger diameter 19 splines of the 4HA differential side pinions. The resulting shaft is very similar to the Jaguar XK120 shafts and although I had to wait months for a batch of these to be made as my two were put through as modified members of the same batch to hold the price down!
These are Garth Wright's photographs (this page and overleaf) of his recent Jupiter rear axle work - perhaps of interest because of the scarcity of any crownwheel and pinion sets for the standard 3HA Jupiter axle and ratios.
gw1.jpg
gw1.jpg (13.86 KiB) Viewed 226 times
gw2.jpg
gw2.jpg (12.9 KiB) Viewed 226 times
gw3.png
gw3.png (87.42 KiB) Viewed 226 times
gw4.png
gw4.png (97.21 KiB) Viewed 226 times
I also took the opportunity to redesign the outer seals to a Nitrile metric size (36 x 58 x 12) to negate the need for the difficult-to-source Payan leather ones.
The ex-Scimitar axle tubes were cut each side of the differential casing, and jig welded to the Jupiter tubes which had been cut off to the exact length to maintain the axle width, and the handbrake/Panhard rod bracket ground off and re-welded – a tight fit to the bigger housing.
The differential was rebuilt using the Jaguar parts but with the central thrust block from the Scimitar (note: this part is not used in the Jaguar IRS units which have stub axles). Luckily the Jaguar CWP gearset in my e-bay acquisition was in excellent condition so this avoided paying Jaguar prices for a new set. I had however located three similar sets at re-builders if needed. These gears are 45:11 (4.0909:1) so with the higher teeth count are arguably better than the 37:9 (4.11:1) teeth of my noisy 3HA set.
The pinion splines of the 4HA are the same as the 3HA, as is the pinion seal (which can be bought as for E-types in Nitrile with integral gasket and dust seal as better than the Payan type). Hence the standard 1140 series flange for the propshaft was re-used, with the 4HA pinion shaft pre-loaded with a crush tube rather than shimming.
That’s it in a nutshell – easier said than done! There are many points of detail that have been fully recorded and filed with all the drawings and details of suppliers including who holds the programme for the halfshafts – these notes will stay with the car. The casing is also fully tagged as a 4HA conversion with its ratio. But for the purists, if some good 3HA gears appear, then the original axle could go straight back in. That said, the 4HA axles can take up to 300 bhp so I’m hoping it will be there for a while!
The result is a transmission that is as whisper quiet as I dared hope for - no sound in any mode, just that lovely Jupiter exhaust burble. Once more, a pleasure to drive – all we need is some good cruising weather!
I am indebted to a great engineer in Tony Absolom of Automotive Solutions who runs a local service garage and classic race car support team. He undertook much of the work with skill and enthusiasm, not to mention his 4HA jig, superb welding, and database of Jaguar differential ratios.
I’m just glad for my part that I appear to have got all the dimensions right!
And thanks for the patience of many JCC members who have supplied eartime, parts, and contacts along the way!
skype = keithaclements ;
Srenner
Posts: 547
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Like to look at pictures
Given Name: Scott
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Srenner »

Living in the land of Hot Rods, there are several huge shops that will modify any axle any way one wants. A Ford 8" might be a good choice; it's very robust, was in production for decades, can have a limited slip and has many ratios, including 3.8 and 4.11. The differential carrier pops out the front, making ratio changes easy.
PJGD
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:58 am
Your interest in the forum: A Jowett owner since 1965; Javelins, Bradford, and Jupiter (current). Interested in all things Jowett.
Given Name: Philip
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by PJGD »

That New Zealand mod looks like a lot of work, and expensive too.

I think that If I were to do something along those lines I would go for a De Dion axle arrangement with a Watt link for lateral location. A Jaguar or similar differential would be mounted via brackets to the frame probably with silent block bushes, and drive shafts with UJ's or CVJ's (constant velocity joints) would take the drive to the hubs. As Scott points out, one of many hot rod places could certainly do that conversion. The advantage is that the axle would be lighter, the roll center can be where you want it to be, and handling should be improved - which is why racing cars of the 50's used the De Dion arrangement.
Philip Dingle
aka, PJGD
Keith Clements
websitedesign
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 am
Your interest in the forum: Jup NKD 258, the most widely travelled , raced and rallied Jowett.
Given Name: Keith
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Keith Clements »

Philip,
Garth's mod was done in the UK and I guess was the result of a sequence of events. Garth obtained some newly cut CW and P gears via JOAC but these proved to be noisy. Hence, I guess, he was advised by the shop he went to to go down that route.

The reason for this topic is the update of the racing Jupiter for Le Mans. So your suggestion of using a more modern, lighter axle has merit and the use of a modified location geometry is already being considered. Of course, we will have to study the regs to get through scrutineering and , more importantly, get the papers for the car and its mods.

Your thoughts and possible solutions would be most welcome.

Peter and I reviewed your previously contributed topic on gearing and overdrives in an attempt to decide on a suitable axle ratio. This is when we started looking at drag and its affect on the possible top speed in a theoretical attempt to solve the problem.
We have little information on the drag of a Jup in the racing configuration of no windscreen, tonneau cover, removed spare wheel and its door and no bumpers. We thought about some covering of the underside of the car to improve the aero dynamics.
The aim is to get the Jup to a top speed of 130 mph so what power does the engine need to achieve this and, more importantly, how do we reduce the losses in the drive train to get the power onto the road? Then we need to know what revs that power is delivered at to chose an axle ratio.

The discussion also considered the cornering capability because it is probably this that has the greatest effect on lap time. So we then moved to the smaller wider wheels and better rubber subject as well as the Panhard rod location and LSD subjects .
skype = keithaclements ;
Keith Clements
websitedesign
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 am
Your interest in the forum: Jup NKD 258, the most widely travelled , raced and rallied Jowett.
Given Name: Keith
Contact:

Re: Overdrive references in archive

Post by Keith Clements »

I used the search server to find these.
download/file.php?id=24529 Keith Rumsey's detailed Javelin installation of a Jaguar Mk 2 unit page 59 onwards. This is similar to the installation on my Jupiter.
download/file.php?id=24518 page 65 follow up by Keith Rumsey, 15000 miles report
download/file.php?id=25231 Laycock brochure
download/file.php?id=25284 Laycock manual
download/file.php?id=23821 Jupiter conversions page 4
download/file.php?id=23785 Jupiter conversions page 5
download/file.php?id=24165 Jupiter conversions page 14
download/file.php?id=24594 Javelin conversions page 80
download/file.php?id=23903 This is almost a repeat of Drummond's article page 20 .Plus manufacture of plates.


download/file.php?id=23688 Philip Dingle comments on power curves page 4
download/file.php?id=23921 Salisbury rear axle specs with weights page 11
plus a clear description of some technical terms to follow
plus an update on piston speed limit ( Jav/Jup where stroke/bore is 1.19 (90/72.5) which suggest that white metal bearings are the limiting factor
plus overdrive conversion by Tony George

What I take from this discussion on limiting factors is that the piston speed should be 4000 ft/sec for reliability. So for a 90 mm stroke this equates to 6755 rpm . Bearing load might reduce that. But modern materials, such as copper lead or preferably alutin big end bearings, could take the revs higher and racing might accept less reliability. So a design goal of max revs of 6700 rpm should be achievable.

Note the out of the factory Javelin is 2500 ft/sec at 66 mph or 4258 rpm. See https://jowett.net/Parts/TechNotes-Part ... alData.htm
Last edited by Keith Clements on Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
skype = keithaclements ;
Srenner
Posts: 547
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Like to look at pictures
Given Name: Scott
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Overdrive and rear axle and 15 inch wheels

Post by Srenner »

Staying with Salisbury axles in order to retain an original look, what about MGB? These will have 3.9 ratios and new. limited slips offered by several manufacturers.

Later Morgans had 7HA axles.

Richard has a decent panhard rod arrangement. Placed behind the axle, the width of the Jupiter frame allows a fairly long arm. Swaged aluminum tubing is cheap here (one small advantage of NASCAR) and one can get any custom length.
Keith Clements
websitedesign
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 am
Your interest in the forum: Jup NKD 258, the most widely travelled , raced and rallied Jowett.
Given Name: Keith
Contact:

More on suspension

Post by Keith Clements »

This topic explores a few things (including anti roll bars) with many contributors.
viewtopic.php?p=8818#p8818

and then from Drummond in 1977
download/file.php?id=24479

The chassis was then scraped and cleaned, new front tubes fitted and many other small modifications carried out such as anti—roll bar mountings, A point worth noting when carrying out any welding to the Jupiter chassis is that the majority of the tubes are chrome-moly steel, (Approx, 1.5% - 2.5% chrome - .5% moly) and that theoretically it should not be welded with mild steel electrodes or by oxy—acetalene gas welding. Granted, both these methods will, work, but the mild steel electrode weld is weaker than the base material when related to tensile strengths and is not a true metallurgical match to the base metal. Gas welding produces unwanted oxides and some hardness in the heat affected zone (H, A,Z,) which
can produce cracking at a later date. The correct method is to use a chrome-moly electrode (2% chrome — .5% moly) or (2.5% chrome — 1% moly) and to use the minimum amperage you can successfully weld with. This is to keep the heat input down to a minimum, USING THIS METHOD, A STRONG, CRACK FREE, WELD CAN BE OBTAINED

Mike Smailes and a front anti roll bar. Page 1 and page 5
download/file.php?id=23832

I found this an interesting re-read of the trails and tribulations of the 1991 Marathon. This was when Jowett Motorsport was doing a lot of racing, rallies and hill climbs.
download/file.php?id=24327

This article on the ERA Javelin which had roll bars front and rear. Are any of the six made still around?
download/file.php?id=23617

This article on setting up a crown wheel and pinion from a Mk 1 Jag in a Jav on Page 43
download/file.php?id=23646
this is concluded here on page 46
download/file.php?id=23647

Why have a balance pipe?
download/file.php?id=23648
skype = keithaclements ;
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests