Javelin brakes

PAUL BEAUMONT · Post by **PAUL BEAUMONT** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:29 pm

Is anyone going to answer Paul's question on brake pipe ends???? From my experience our friends the other side of the pond stick doggedly to Imperial threads - Unified not British threads, and I am not familiar with the Javelin braking system to know which are needed ( its the Bradford, with which I am most familiar, and it does not suffer with hydraulics problems!)
I wonder if there is a USA car parts specialist in your area Paul, or whether any USA Jowett owner could help??

pat lockyer · Post by **pat lockyer** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:17 pm

The type used are 3/8 UNF, i believe most Halfords stock them and will make up the required pipe to pattern.
We still have old stock, but must be careful not to use metric that can be similar.

pat lockyer · Post by **pat lockyer** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:19 pm

The type used are 3/8 UNF, i believe most Halfords stock them and will make up the required pipe to pattern.
We still have old stock, but must be careful not to use metric that can be similar.
Cripes that wine was strong!

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:07 pm

I thought I should let you all know about my trials and tribulations re my Javelin brakes. So here goes and I'm afraid the story is far from a conclusion.
Firstly a confession, since it's good for the soul. I cross threaded(!) one of my wheel cylinders as I was fitting the pipe and could not stop the leak. I was supplied with a replacement and then realised it bore a different Girling part number to the one already fitted. It was then I discovered that there are two cylinders which look identical but which have different size piston bores. Now I realise that ALL of you will know this already but please bear with me.
My Javelin has full hydraulic brakes and I have always specified this when obtaining brake parts. Many years ago I requested and was supplied with wheel cylinders for all round and simply fitted them and forgot them (until my latest experience with a seized cylinder that is!)
My car has Girling part number 303310 wheel cylinders on the front offside (right hand). I have been told that these are for the earlier hydro-mechanical Javelins and have a 1" piston bore. Apparently I should have Girling part number 303200/210 which have a 7/8" bore. I assume the wheel cylinders fitted to the left hand side will also be 1" bore although I haven't yet had the heart to take that hub off as well!
This is a real pain since I had assumed (in my undoubted ignorance) that replacement of a wheel cylinder was going to be pretty straight forward.
My dilemma now is:
Should I go to all that added expense of replacing all front wheel cylinders to the 7/8" piston bore variety?
Would it be safe to try to source a 1" piston and fit that and run on 1" piston brakes with a full hydraulic car?
Could I run the car with say one 7/8" piston and one 1" piston as long as I "mirrored" this arrangement on the opposite wheel?
Does anyone know where I could obtain a Girling 303310 (1" piston) wheel cylinder please?

Thanks everyone for your patience and concern. I'm almost at the end of my tether with this additional Javelin problem.

Paul

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:22 pm

I have been since told that my 1" cylinders are NOT for the earlier hydro-mechanical cars since they don't have two pistons but only one. The current 1" cylinders are just like the cylinders in all the parts brochures etc. for full hydraulic braked cars! So did Jowetts fit both 1" and 7/8" piston bore wheel cylinders to full hydraulic braked cars at some stage since they seem interchangeable?

David Morris · Post by **David Morris** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:11 pm

Dear Paul,

This a very complicated picture! What I understand to be the usual position is that for a full hydraulic Javelin, ie after chassis E0/PB/10594, the following should apply :-

Front Cylinders ( Left Hand ) are Girling 390320 [ these may have casting numbers H3115 or 303200W marked on the side of the cylinder] The Jowett part number was 54195.

Front Cylinders ( Right Hand ) are Girling 390321 [ these may have casting numbers H3116 or 412670 marked on the side of the cylinder] The Jowett part number was 54196.

Rear Cylinders are Girling 390120 & 390121 [ these may have casting numbers 301210W or 301200W marked on the side of the cylinders, according to them being RH or LH] The Jowett part numbers was 54209 (LH) and 54210(RH).

According to measurements I have made this evening, the front cylinders and the rears are both 7/8â€

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:58 am

Thanks David.

What a fool I have been! Following your advice I removed the near-side hub this morning and hey presto both cylinders on this axle bear the Girling number 303200W and do in fact appear to be 7/8" dia. So how did I get supplied with 7/8" for the front near side and 1" for the offside when I renewed all my wheel cylinders and master cylinder many years ago? Added to which all appeared to work very well.

Well I think the failed (1") front offside wheel cylinder has in fact done me a favour since it has brought to light a potentially dangerous situation re the brakes on my blessed car.

I will now be able to order 7/8" front cylinders in complete(??) confidence.

Tghanks for all your help.

Paul

Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:47 pm

The Javelin in the Clund Shed under resto is getting ready to have brakes installed....Im just a by stander on the project..
The cylinders had been honed but there is a question on 1 as it if is ok...marginal
The philospy is "brakes, take no short cuts, do so and u die"
The descintion by Neil Moore, after some discussion..get them all reselved in stainless.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:00 pm

My suspicion is that MY offside cylinders of 1" dia are not for a Javelin and were NEVER intended to be. It will be interesting to see which car they were intended for!

By the way, the body of the 1" dia cylinders DO look that bit bigger than the correct 7/8" dia cylinders when placed side by side although they are the same overall design and worryingly they DO fit the Javelin backplate- no problem and they work!

If my experience helps others then I will be glad. I never realised replacing a wheel cylinder could be so complicated and traumatic! But at least I will have the correct cylinders at the front. Next job will be to check the rear cylinders!

Paul

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:17 am

I have found a source for Javelin wheel cylinders- Paul H.Hunt of
POWERTRACK LTD. The 'benefits' are: the price Â£32.50 and (AND in my view this is more important) the fact that no cylinders are required for exchange. This will help me to have at least one spare per wheel should I encounter a similar problem in the future!

The down side is that the cylinders, whilst they are new, are not made by Girling but Powertrack have helped in the develoment and remanufacture of these units which have been obsolete for many years. Presumably they will also never be made by the Lucas Girling.

They have advised me that they have sold hundreds of these cylinder all over the world and they are popular with many clubs and specialists.

My questions are:

Has anyone in the JCC had experience of these Powertrack 'remanufactured' cylinders?
What guidance could/would you give me, please?

Thanks

Paul

Post by **Forumadmin** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:46 pm

Word of warning.... Powertrack do not seem to have an address on their web page. You should checkout their return and insurance policies, especially if buying brake parts.

Also do a search on bulletin boards for feedback.

pat lockyer · Post by **pat lockyer** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:34 pm

Remember that Lucas still supply the wheel cylinder 7/8" kits for peanuts and can be used in old used wheel cylinders if the bores etc are ok.
Old pitted cylinders can be resleeved in stainless [not expensive] for years of service useing DOT 3/4 but another sad story with Silicone.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:24 pm

I assume from this Pat (because I honestly don't know) that silicone reacts poorly with stainless (steel?) Is my assumption correct?

Thanks

Paul

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:30 pm

Thanks for the advice Pat.

I have now obtained replacement front offside wheel cylinders from a company called Classic Spares. These are re-sleeved with stainless steel so I can't use silicone fluid! I have checked with the boss of Classic Spares and he has advised that as long as I drain the system completely and pump through some DOT3/4 fluid then I will be okay.

I had to remove the front near side cylinders in order to remove the n/s swivel pin anyway and the front o/s are new cylinders. In addition I have removed the bleed nipples from the rear brakes and both the low pressure feed pipe from the reservoir to the master cylinder and the high pressure pipe from the master cylinder to the separate wheel cylinders. I have also pumped the foot pedal in order to force through any remaining silicone fluid. I have been assured that this is all I need to do.

Therefore as soon as I have my reconditioned swivel pin back for refitting I will be reverting to DOT3/4 brake fluid! Just thought you might all like (?) an update.

Thanks everyone

Paul

pat lockyer · Post by **pat lockyer** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:32 pm

Hi Paul,
Cripes the changing back from silicone to DOT 3/4 is not to be recommended unless all ruber seals are replaced including hoses.
You can go from DOT 3/4 to silicone with no replacements but not the other way round.
Dot 3/4 changed every recomended interval is the long term favourite.
Silicone will not corrode the stainless but over time the cylinders will stick with waxing and pooling.

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