JowettTalk

ETHANOL- The saga continues…………….
Through my local Club –The Kettering Area Motor Club, I have been reporting since September 2011 on the associated issues relating to the introduction of Ethanol into our pump fuels and the threatened imminent increase to raise the levels to 10%. The information I have used has come from a number of reliable sources.

This follows my introduction of Bardahl E10 Fuel Improver to the Jupiter to mitigate and neutralise any negative effects associated with the addition of Ethanol into pump petrol. The extra cost of the Bardahl seems to be neutralised by the increase of 10% plus in the MPG and to date I have not detected any adverse effects by using the additive.

I my pursuit for further information and in the absence of the FBHVC’s test result I came across this YouTube link from HVA.

This is a relatively recent video [ September 2011] from the Historic Vehicle Association [HVA] –similar to our own FBHVC and an association affiliated to the FIVA [Federation Internationale Vehicles Anciens]. The USA and Canada have been introducing Ethanol into pump petrol [gasoline] since 2005 and in 2011 blends of up to 10% were commonplace. The YouTube link demonstrates the potential harmful effects Ethanol of some 7% can cause to fuel lines, diaphragms, carburettor parts, fuel pumps etc. Not only can these be expensive items to replace, or in some cause near impossible to replace, there are severe and distinctive risks of ruptured fuel lines, leaking fuels and sticking accelerators all with potential disastrous consequences.

Personally, after watching the YouTube link, I feel that my seemingly premature introduction of Bardahl [since September 2011] is thoroughly justified.

I would be interested to know the Insurance Companies views regarding the introduction of E10 and the inherent risks highlighted.

Have a look at the link and consider the contents and other associated links that appear. Granted these are all USA sources, BUT, my feeling is that if we sit and wait if could be too late to mitigate the long term effects and irreversible damage caused by the introduction of Ethanol and worse still the imminent planned increase to the authorised and encouraged levels of 10%.


Go to http://www.youtube.com/videos type in HVA Ethanol into the Search window. Look for-
HVA: Ethanol in classic car engines.mov
Under the hood with ethanol and your classic car - Go under the hood with HVA member and veteran classic car mechanic, Ed Syrocki, in a new video that shows what ethanol related engine damage looks like in our historic cars.
We would be very interested to hear from our international Members who are probably currently using higher Ethanol levels that we in the UK are at this moment.

Craig Ainge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtqWT8ZfG5Y

The video shows damage to mainly rubber components. This might be caused by other additives in the mixture besides ethanol. Anyhow, whether putting another additive into the mixture to neutralise whatever ethanol is doing is questionable as to its effectiveness. The simplest remedy is going to be to change the small number of components affected rather than try to avoid using modern petrol. Ok it may be difficult getting the right spec diaphragms! Since ethanol attracts water this may be the cause of some oxidiastion in carbs that have sat for a while. Ethanol does remove the gums that used to build up in fuel sytems but can transport them further down the line, so make sure you fit an in line fuel filter close to the carb.

The same has been said about additives in oils affecting older type bearings and to silicon fluid in brake systems. There may be some truth in some cases.

Craig, I have deleted the two other copies of this post so that we can follow one thread.

ETHANOL DOS AND DON'TS
• Replace pre-1985 fiberglass tanks.
• Replace fuel lines, o-rings and gaskets that aren't built for ethanol.
• Inspect hose clamps and metal fittings in the fuel system for corrosion.
• Refill the fuel tank often to reduce airspace in the tank, which reduces water condensation.
• Install a fuel line water separator to eliminate water that collects in the tank.
• Use fuel additives to stop fuel from aging and oxidizing.
• Use de-emulsifying or hydrophobic additives to prevent water from homogenizing with fuel.
Never use a fuel additive that emulsifies water.
Never buy fuel that isn't clear and bright.
Do not use E10 contaminated with water without a combustion-enhancing additive.
Do not leave a near-empty fuel tank sitting for long periods of time.


From the manufacturers....

Ferrari - "...we suggest that our customers not use alcohol fuel in our vehicles.". (1)


Porsche - "...change to a different fuel or station if any of the following problems occur: deteriation of driveability and performance, substantially reduced fuel economy, vapor lock, and engine malfunction or stalling".(1)


Volkswagen/Audi - "If you experience a loss of fuel economy or driveability and performance problems due to the use of [ethanol blends], we recommend that you switch to unblended fuel.". (1)


Jowett....' If you can find fuel without alcohol in it , use it"

The Department For Transport (DFT) commisssioned a report from QinetiQ to investigate all the possible consequences of the change, & this came into the public domain (54 pages) last month. There are some conclusions that may well affect a lot of older cars, the main ones being :-

1. The majority of vehicles 10 years old or older will not be compatible with E10 due to fuel system material incompatibility issues.
2. Carburettor vehicles will suffer problems due to the above, plus corrosion, & driveability issues.
3. Not a real concern I don't think, but just in case I'll mention it ..... glass fibre fuel tanks will suffer catastrophic failure due to the incompatibility of the glass fibre resin with the E10 blend.
4. Vehicles 10 years old or older should not be fuelled on E10 unless the manufacturer can state that the vehicles are compatible with E10.
5. E5 should not be phased out in 2013 & its widespread availability should continue for the forseeable future.

There also exists a specification for E0 fuel, to be available for historic vehicles, & the current plans are to delete this totally (at least I think that's what the proposals say) but the report recommends that this is retained (however just what all this means seems to be rather vague)

Reduction in leaded fuel sales is planned (remember the total amount that can be produced / sold is limited by licence with the sole UK supplier) however, the new proposed limit is still more than the total sales at the moment, so this does not seem to have any consequences for leaded fuel users.

It is thought that in light of the report, E5 petrol mix will be around until at least 2015, & in the meantime presumably we might expect to hear from manufacturers that still exist, e.g. Lotus & Peugeot, about the many cars potentailly affected (thought to exceed 8.6 million in the UK at present - with around half of these expected to still be in use by 2013)

Thanks to the Federation Of British Historic Vehicles Club (of which we are a member) for all the information.

There is also a consideration for modern cars - many big car manufacturers warranties state that no more than 5% ethanol should be used. If that is the case, anyone putting 10% ethanol into a modern car has a problem. I doubt that a manufacturer or repairer could prove that damage had been caused by higher %, however if you have got 10% in the tank, they might just decide to hand back the keys and tear up the paperwork. Especially considering the damage will likely be an engine problem which could be costly to fix.

Is there a method through which we can treat ethanol mixed fuels to remove the ethanol? Any chemists care to comment? If so, I guess it would be possible to buy fuel, treat it, and then put it into the car. That said, modern unleaded fuel has a fairly limited lifetime for optimum performance, so you couldn't easily stockpile treated product (and I suspect your house insurance might have a bit to say about that!)

Edit - use of "biofuels" in HGV and diesel engines is entirely different, they use oils instead of replacing some of the content with ethanol, so not much use for comparison.

Jack.

There are at least two issues to be solved, chemical reaction to rubbers and plastics and hygroscopic nature of the mixture. Assuming fuel bought at the pump has not been sitting in tanks for ages then using only fresh fuel should solve the latter. The former might be solved with yet more additives.
Studies show that the destructive effect on rubber/plastics of ethanol peaks at 25% concentration, thus a rise from E5 to E10 will cause more damage.

Although ethanol does improve 'pinking' it may also run hotter and burn valve seats. So some tuning should be done. There seems to be some discussion as to whether that means retarding or advancing the ignition. I guess it depends if it is power or realiability you are after.

There were articles about Ethanol in fuel in the June, July and September 2009 Jowetteers. There was also, somewhere, an article about how to get ethanol out of petrol by mixing with water and then doing a separation by density (by Ian Martin who wrote the September artcile?).

Go back 20yrs or so and the same issues came up on older cars with the dropping of leaded fuels

Yes ethanol can attack old rubber etc, but I would imagin we have all upgraded these with the new fuels anyway.
Adding ethanol further reduces the specific gravity of the fuel, there fore there is less btu (energy) per L, but more per kg. So requires re jetting (larger) and the timing curves will need to be adjusted in non ECU controlled engines.

There seems to be some discussion as to whether that means retarding or advancing the ignition. I guess it depends if it is power or realiability you are after

The question as to power or econimy timing is a falicy....the cent timing is there for basic power timing to drop the piont of max expolsion between on a set piont, 15 and 18 degs ATDC..depending on bore to stroke ratio of the engine and several othe factors...compression etc.
And the VA is there for more advance at a partular to run economic lean cruise mixtures, which because lean have a slower burn.
The reason more advance facilcy comes about is because the more advance an engine has, it gives off a 'stonger' engine note...This is like an opitical illussion...if times or dyno readings are taken there is less power..

The only issue is...are the seals etc avalible in resistant compounds?
Are the new seals that are lead free resistant also E10 resistant?
And considering the changes in timing from leaded to non leaded, the change from non leaded to E10 will be very minor if needed at all.

Our pre war cars where on unleaded, lead was introduced post war, which meant changes to factory timing back then....
Then un leaded introduced seals timing and jetting.. now E10.
I really dont see the major issue here...more people running around panicing simply because they dont wish to upgrade to more reliable 21 st century rubber compounds that last longer and better than 70 yrs ago.
Storm in a tea cup.

The question is not 'power and economy' but 'power and reliability'. Does ethanol burn hotter and thus burn out valves? Does altering the timing reduce this temperature? Then does this alteration of timing alter the power (and exonomy)?

Power and economy are very dependant on getting that max pressure of explosion between 12 and 18 degs ATDC...(where depends on things like compression, cam profiles and bore to store ratios)
To do that depends on things like compression, fuel types and correct AFR.
No matter what fuel, if that timing is out, one will run hot, have exessive exhaust temps, tend to burn valves.
These things are not dependant on the fuel but rather tuning a partular engine correctly.
If it is not tuned correct, it will do these things which happen to be the same things that determine power and economy.

The exception to this when comes to heat is when one runs fuels like CNG and LPG where a lean mixture runs cold and its the over rich mixture that runs hot.....which has to do with running liquified gas fuels and the refidgirant properties on the engine.

Yes, timing alters temperature. Does ethanol burn hotter and thus require an alteration of timing and if so which way? Assume a car is tuned for lead free without ethanol and then we put in 5% ethanol and then 10% ethanol, does altering the timing alter temperature and/or improve power?

Damn this server is slow...
higher the octane of a solvent the slower the burn time therefore more timing is required.
The leaner a mixture the slower the burn the more timing is required..hence why dizzys have VA.
Higher the compression the less timing required.
Now its not a simple matter of adjusting timing...
Higher the octane...and/or the mixture of solvents in a fuel determines its SG....lower the SG (methanol) the bigger the jets one needs to supply the higher volume required for the stored potentual engery in that fuel

Extreme example is running an engine on 100% methanol...yep our engines will do so...100% methanol has a very low SG therefore one needs to not only increase jet sizes but fuel lines and pump GPH.

Now just because there is ethanol in the mix, it is an assumption that mix is simply std petrol with ethanol added , or a new blend of solvents....and an assumption the blened fuel does have a lower SG, and an assumption that the BTU per kg of fuel has changed....
Therefore timing yes that will have to be adjusted and retuned...every engine will be different...bore sizes etc etc.
As to jetting thats where data loggers and O2 sensors come in.

Hmm no edit....With modern ECU controled vechicles it is not such an issue unless the Stonic afr of the fuwel its self is changed, because the sensors and ecu are programed to adjust fuel supply and timing to suit....
Its just in our carbed non ecu cars we have to do this manually.